Discussion:
Top Ten Hanna-Barbera TV misconceptions (Pre-Cartoon Cartoons)
(too old to reply)
Steve Carras
2004-04-12 04:02:42 UTC
Permalink
1.That the studio wasn't just FRUGALLY minded--it was downright
cheapie cheapie,esp.working with Screen Gems (given, the budgets for
Columbia Pictures,esp.in the Harry Cohen era WERE, but the films were
very well done within the budgets)

2.No HB before CARTOON CARTOONS exist.

3.Mo HB before the 1990s exist.

4.SMURFS are the only HB shw done, and therefore there's cause du jour
to detest the studio.In reaity the studio went back to the
fifties..and in the sixties created MEMROABLKE stuff like MAGILLA,
JOSIE, FLINTSTONES,JETSONS,YOGI,RUFF AND REDDY,SINBAD JR.,etc.,etc.

5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.

6.Janet Waldo, Alan Reed,ec.were just Saturday AM voice actors with no
radio expierece.Even Daws Butler and Don Messick (who DID work in
theatricals,just unbilled for the most part before the sixties, that's
all) get this.(In realtiy, though little if at all heard prioir to HB,
the above, and Penny "Blondie" (after all!) Singleton,etc. hd VAST
expierence on radio).

7.ALL HB cartoons are made for the Peggy Charens (The
SMURFS,etc.).AAnyone WATCHING the 1958-1961 YOGIs, or TOP CAT with his
bon vivant savior faire and big city "Bilko"/Phil Silvers cunning
would know OTHERWISE.Judy Jetson MUST have caught on with ABC in 1962,
because A DATE WITH JET SCREAMER< portraying the Jude-stress as a
rebellious teen, was the first broadcast JETSONS (either the ROSIE one
had been made first as someitmes mentioned or the gang cfredit-ending
created for the original was done after the ROSIE debut was finished).
ANd of course we all know what swaggering Neantherthals, if you'll
pardon a pun, our dear friend Mr.Flintstone was, and how cunning WIlma
was, a la the HONEYMOONERS.(QUICK DRAW's another that was MUCH smarter
than mentioned and of course the Jay Ward infleunce all 'round on the
studio's 1957 TV debut, RUFF AND REDDY)

8.There's no sex appeal,esp.in the 1970s ones (obviously either from
straight guys who NEVER saw BUTCH CASSIDY-not the 1969 classic 20th
Century-Fox flick with Paul Newman (before his, uh salad days) and
Robert Redford but the teen rock group 1973 one), JOSIE, or
SCOOBY--I'm a Velma guy myself).

9.ALL HB shows "preach morality" and sell toys (pre-Powerpuff and
CN,anyhow).

10.Kinda related to #1, but just remembred..the Captiol/John Seely
(and also Associated Produvctioon and KPM music) in the cartoons, and
later Hoyt Curtin and Ted Nicholas's cues, are the ULTIMATE in
cheapness (as opposed to the ORIGINAL Looney Tunes scores for
Warnrs,or what Chuck Jones and the like did).Never mind of course the
TELEVSION series schedule..also of course poeple forget WHY TV at
all--book blocking in theatres had collapsed, cinemas werre less and
less showing toons...
Arklier
2004-04-12 05:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
4.SMURFS are the only HB shw done, and therefore there's cause du jour
to detest the studio.In reaity the studio went back to the
fifties..and in the sixties created MEMROABLKE stuff like MAGILLA,
JOSIE, FLINTSTONES,JETSONS,YOGI,RUFF AND REDDY,SINBAD JR.,etc.,etc.
Seriously, is there ANYONE ON THIS EARTH THAT THINKS THAT THE SMURFS
IS THE ONLY SHOW HB HAS DONE? ANYONE?

--
***@hotnospammail.com

If you can't figure out my address, you need help.

Girl gamer since 1984,

Atari/NES/Genesis/SNES/DC/GBA/GC/PS1-2/Xbox/PC gamer
Vector Viper
2004-04-12 05:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arklier
Post by Steve Carras
4.SMURFS are the only HB shw done, and therefore there's cause du jour
to detest the studio.In reaity the studio went back to the
fifties..and in the sixties created MEMROABLKE stuff like
MAGILLA,
Post by Arklier
Post by Steve Carras
JOSIE, FLINTSTONES,JETSONS,YOGI,RUFF AND REDDY,SINBAD
JR.,etc.,etc.
Post by Arklier
Seriously, is there ANYONE ON THIS EARTH THAT THINKS THAT THE
SMURFS
Post by Arklier
IS THE ONLY SHOW HB HAS DONE? ANYONE?
HB did the smurfs?! (they were licensed from Peyo!?)
Post by Arklier
--
If you can't figure out my address, you need help.
Girl gamer since 1984,
Atari/NES/Genesis/SNES/DC/GBA/GC/PS1-2/Xbox/PC gamer
Arklier
2004-04-12 06:33:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 22:55:51 -0700, "Vector Viper"
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Arklier
Seriously, is there ANYONE ON THIS EARTH THAT THINKS THAT THE
SMURFS
Post by Arklier
IS THE ONLY SHOW HB HAS DONE? ANYONE?
HB did the smurfs?! (they were licensed from Peyo!?)
I know. I have a few of his books that were translated to English.
They're quite good, in fact.

--
***@hotnospammail.com

If you can't figure out my address, you need help.

Girl gamer since 1984,

Atari/NES/Genesis/SNES/DC/GBA/GC/PS1-2/Xbox/PC gamer
Chris Sobieniak
2004-04-12 07:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arklier
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 22:55:51 -0700, "Vector
Post by Vector Viper
Post by Arklier
Seriously, is there ANYONE ON THIS EARTH
THAT THINKS THAT THE SMURFS IS THE
ONLY SHOW HB HAS DONE? ANYONE?
I like to think there's probably a few out there that would believe
that, or that the Smurfs was an American creation, when in fact they
originated 20 years earlier than their TV sereis debut in Belguim as the
comics or "bande dessin" that Peyo originated them in. It became more
of a phenonenum in the US once the TV series was produced and led to the
onslaught of Smurf-related items to pop up.
Post by Arklier
Post by Vector Viper
HB did the smurfs?! (they were licensed from
Peyo!?)
I know. I have a few of his books that were
translated to English. They're quite good, in fact.
I wish I could find these again. They were once available in the US in
the late '70s as they were handled by Random House (using the British
translations). I can spot a few of these editions on eBay a few times,
but I don't think any English editions are currently available in North
America, which is a shame given the recent resurgence of the Smurfs
through the retro-marketing of '80s icons. If I had the rights, I
would've wanted to bring the comics over again myself. Would rather
market them as smaller hardcover editions I could easily sell through
the graphic novel or "manga" sections of most bookstores (those taller
A4-sized editions are a pain to collect I think)..

From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak

--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Chika
2004-04-12 17:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arklier
Post by Vector Viper
Post by Arklier
Seriously, is there ANYONE ON THIS EARTH THAT THINKS THAT THE SMURFS
IS THE ONLY SHOW HB HAS DONE? ANYONE?
HB did the smurfs?! (they were licensed from Peyo!?)
I know. I have a few of his books that were translated to English.
They're quite good, in fact.
I'll admit it; somewhere I have a vinyl copy of the album "Father Abraham
in Smurfland", made some time before HB started making their series!

"Beer, beer, smurfing beer..." *^^*
--
//\ // Chika <***@penfuarg.bet.hx. - ROT13>
// \// The second ZFC coming <crashnet.org.uk/zedeffcee>

... As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error.
Steve Carras
2004-04-13 00:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chika
Post by Arklier
Post by Vector Viper
Post by Arklier
Seriously, is there ANYONE ON THIS EARTH THAT THINKS THAT THE SMURFS
IS THE ONLY SHOW HB HAS DONE? ANYONE?
HB did the smurfs?! (they were licensed from Peyo!?)
I know. I have a few of his books that were translated to English.
They're quite good, in fact.
I'll admit it; somewhere I have a vinyl copy of the album "Father Abraham
in Smurfland", made some time before HB started making their series!
"Beer, beer, smurfing beer..." *^^*
If I recal CORRECTLY,too, those SMurf books are meant to be a lot more
funnier and are the BOMB esp.when comp.to the HB show that littered
our airwaves 1981-92.

How ironic for the Smurf show to have been proto-"Pinky,Brain and
Elmyra"-ized and yet to have Juen Foray of Jay Ward fame, who WOULD
have fit in with the PEyo induvced eophiciaitomn of the comic
book..the HB version was not the one used for the 1982 flick SMURFS
AND MAGIC FLUTE which reportedly had the smurfs as an AFTERTHOUGHT,
with footage made of them (it's said that the film was already made as
THE MAGIC FLUTE).
Chris Sobieniak
2004-04-13 04:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Chika
I'll admit it; somewhere I have a vinyl copy of the
album "Father Abraham in Smurfland", made
some time before HB started making their series!
"Beer, beer, smurfing beer..." *^^*
If I recal CORRECTLY,too, those SMurf books are
meant to be a lot more funnier and are the BOMB
esp.when comp.to the HB show that littered our
airwaves 1981-92.
They were! I just bought one off eBay a whiel back called "King Smurf",
though I haven't gotten it yet, hoping to collect more in the future.

The real misconception I feel most Americans would make of the Smurfs is
that they didn't existed until the HB show came out, when in fact they
had existed long before that, as well as the characters they once
originated it, Yohann & Peewit (otherwise also had their own series of
toons that HB produced as well).
Post by Steve Carras
How ironic for the Smurf show to have been
proto-"Pinky,Brain and Elmyra"-ized and yet to
have Juen Foray of Jay Ward fame, who WOULD
have fit in with the PEyo induvced eophiciaitomn
of the comic book..
It was an OK voice.
Post by Steve Carras
the HB version was not the one used for the 1982
flick SMURFS AND MAGIC FLUTE which
reportedly had the smurfs as an
AFTERTHOUGHT, with footage made of them (it's
said that the film was already made as THE
MAGIC FLUTE).
Technically, the film was always "Smurfs & The Magic Flute", but was
essentially based more on the adventures of Yohann & Peewit who met the
Smurfs a few times in their comics. The film was originally released in
around 1976 (A Frenco-Belguim co-production) and was animated by
Belvision in Belgium (also spear-headed by Peyo's publisher Dupius),
featuring the impressive music of Michael LeGrand.

Once the HB cartoon was aired and the Smurf bandwagon hit America big,
it was decided to bring the movie over as well. The voices already
established for the HB series were not used, being a different group of
people that were doing the voices (featuring Cam Clarke as Peewit's
voice, which I think was from the HB series anyway). The Smurfs in the
film didn't nearly resemble the way the HB version was, and Smurfette
didn't seem to exist yet in this story. The movie was released by
Altantic Releasing Corporation in 1983, and I had the opportunity to
actually see it in the theatres then! Even with it's flaws, I
personally felt it was a very good movie and wanted to see it again and
again, and had to wait till it was out on video.

A while back I managed to find a decent used copy of the tape for $5 at
a used CD shop (once I spotted a 35mm print from a webpage but didn't
buy it). Too bad they don't have this out on DVD now.

From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak

--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Invid Fan
2004-04-13 17:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Sobieniak
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Chika
I'll admit it; somewhere I have a vinyl copy of the
album "Father Abraham in Smurfland", made
some time before HB started making their series!
"Beer, beer, smurfing beer..." *^^*
If I recal CORRECTLY,too, those SMurf books are
meant to be a lot more funnier and are the BOMB
esp.when comp.to the HB show that littered our
airwaves 1981-92.
They were! I just bought one off eBay a whiel back called "King Smurf",
though I haven't gotten it yet, hoping to collect more in the future.
The real misconception I feel most Americans would make of the Smurfs is
that they didn't existed until the HB show came out, when in fact they
had existed long before that, as well as the characters they once
originated it, Yohann & Peewit (otherwise also had their own series of
toons that HB produced as well).
Well, any kid from that time knows that the small figures were sold in
stores long before the tv show, and ads for records of the smurfs
singing were on tv quite a bit.
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Chris Sobieniak
2004-04-14 03:19:24 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Chris Sobieniak
The real misconception I feel most Americans
would make of the Smurfs is that they didn't
existed until the HB show came out, when in fact
they had existed long before that, as well as the
characters they once originated it, Yohann &
Peewit (otherwise also had their own series of
toons that HB produced as well).
Well, any kid from that time knows that the small
figures were sold in stores long before the tv show,
and ads for records of the smurfs singing were on
tv quite a bit.
I remember the records, but I wasn't old enough to really remember the
Smurfs before the cartoon came out, don't think my older brother
remembers much himself (being born a few years earlier from me). But
still, I like to think there was probably a few that didn't know of the
Smurfs before the TV show that would've think the same way I did before
finding out later.

I do wonder if there had been simular misconceptions with Japanese
animation at one point (not that Pokemon would be a perfect example)?

From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak

--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Ugly
2004-04-17 16:30:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 22:55:51 -0700, Vector Viper babbled on about Re: Top Ten
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Arklier
Post by Steve Carras
4.SMURFS are the only HB shw done, and therefore there's cause
du jour
Post by Arklier
Post by Steve Carras
to detest the studio.In reaity the studio went back to the
fifties..and in the sixties created MEMROABLKE stuff like
MAGILLA,
Post by Arklier
Post by Steve Carras
JOSIE, FLINTSTONES,JETSONS,YOGI,RUFF AND REDDY,SINBAD
JR.,etc.,etc.
Post by Arklier
Seriously, is there ANYONE ON THIS EARTH THAT THINKS THAT THE
SMURFS
Post by Arklier
IS THE ONLY SHOW HB HAS DONE? ANYONE?
HB did the smurfs?! (they were licensed from Peyo!?)
That is correct. Schtroumpfs or something like it was their original French name. Oh here
we are.
French artist Pierre "Peyo" Culliford created these enchanting characters (called
"Schtroumpf" in Flemish) in a Belgian comic strip in 1957, long before they appeared in
this (Hanna-Barbera/Sepp International 1981-1990) award-winning series.

-notes taken from "The Encyclopedia of Animated Cartoons" by Jeff Lenburg.
Chris Sobieniak
2004-04-18 03:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ugly
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 22:55:51 -0700, Vector Viper
babbled on about Re: Top Ten Hanna-Barbera TV
misconceptions (Pre-Cartoon Cartoons)
Post by Vector Viper
HB did the smurfs?! (they were licensed from
Peyo!?)
That is correct. Schtroumpfs or something like it
was their original French name. Oh here we are.
French artist Pierre "Peyo" Culliford created these
enchanting characters (called "Schtroumpf" in
Flemish) in a Belgian comic strip in 1957, long
before they appeared in this (Hanna-Barbera/Sepp
International 1981-1990) award-winning series.
-notes taken from "The Encyclopedia of Animated
Cartoons" by Jeff Lenburg.
That's correct. Originally the little blue critters had originated in
another comic Peyo drew called "Johan & Peewit" (only know the English
name anyway), featuring the two characters that might be familiar to
those from the H-B sereis, and the "Magic Flute" movie. Peyo would
later adapt "Schtroumpfs" into it's own comic series a few years later

I remember going to some webpage that suggested that a rough translation
of "Schtroumpf" is something like "doo-hicky" but I could be wrong. In
many countries, they've adapted other names as well, including "Pitufos"
(Spanish), "Smurfen" (German), "Puffi" (Italian) and probably the more
famliar "Smurfs" for the rest of the English world.

For more info on the Smurfs', click here!
http://www.smurfs.com/

From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak

--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Severus Est
2004-04-19 14:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Sobieniak
Post by Ugly
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 22:55:51 -0700, Vector Viper
babbled on about Re: Top Ten Hanna-Barbera TV
misconceptions (Pre-Cartoon Cartoons)
Post by Vector Viper
HB did the smurfs?! (they were licensed from
Peyo!?)
That is correct. Schtroumpfs or something like it
was their original French name. Oh here we are.
French artist Pierre "Peyo" Culliford created these
enchanting characters (called "Schtroumpf" in
Flemish) in a Belgian comic strip in 1957, long
(I don't seem to have the original posting mentioning this, so I'll
just respond here)

Pierre Culliford was a native from Brussels, Belgium. A Belgian isn't
a Frenchman. He was French-speaking, but not French. In Dutch
(Flemish) they were called (De) Smurfen.

Schtroumpf originally comes from:

SCHTROUMPF...?! WHAT?

Why Schtroumpf? Why this strange original name (in the French text)?
Simply because in search of a name for the cute little dwarfs he just
drew, Peyo (real name: Pierre Culliford), wanted to find a name with
derision. Finally it was something approaching the German word for
socks: Strumpf.
As the word was difficult to read for non-Germans, and due to the
rather dumb signification, deterioration gave the famous Schtroumpf!!
(Pronounce: Ch-Trough-mm-ppff)

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Cafe/2877/smurfs/smurfs.html
Post by Chris Sobieniak
Post by Ugly
before they appeared in this (Hanna-Barbera/Sepp
International 1981-1990) award-winning series.
-notes taken from "The Encyclopedia of Animated
Cartoons" by Jeff Lenburg.
That's correct. Originally the little blue critters had originated in
another comic Peyo drew called "Johan & Peewit" (only know the English
Johan et Pirlouit in French (the language Wallonians (southern
Belgians) speak. Brussels is bilingual), Johan en Pierewiet in Dutch
(Dutch being the language Flemings (northern Belgians) speak, Flemish
being a collection of regional dialects).

(I'm stressing the language thing, since there seems to be some
confusion about which part of Belgium speaks what)
Post by Chris Sobieniak
name anyway), featuring the two characters that might be familiar to
those from the H-B sereis, and the "Magic Flute" movie. Peyo would
later adapt "Schtroumpfs" into it's own comic series a few years later
I remember going to some webpage that suggested that a rough translation
of "Schtroumpf" is something like "doo-hicky" but I could be wrong. In
Socks. I'm sure there's many explanations floating around, but this is
the one Peyo himself always put forth. Not that I'm into the Smurfs
;), but I'm Belgian (Flemish) so.. it's common knowledge over here.
Post by Chris Sobieniak
many countries, they've adapted other names as well, including "Pitufos"
(Spanish), "Smurfen" (German), "Puffi" (Italian) and probably the more
famliar "Smurfs" for the rest of the English world.
For more info on the Smurfs', click here!
http://www.smurfs.com/
From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak
--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Metlhd3138
2004-04-12 13:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Dont forget "challenge of the superfriends is the only superfriends series",
ignoring the superior 80s series galactic guardians and the worlds greatest
superpowers show (which were able to hold their own with the best 80s toons of
the time)
Derek Janssen
2004-04-12 20:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Metlhd3138
Dont forget "challenge of the superfriends is the only superfriends series",
ignoring the superior 80s series galactic guardians and the worlds greatest
superpowers show (which were able to hold their own with the best 80s toons of
the time)
#1 on the Cartoon Network Overused HB Cliche' list, followed closely by:

"2) The original 'Flintstones' is a cultural embarrassment, because they
used looping backgrounds."
(With which a few recent DVD buyers might take issue.)

And as for #3, "Pothead Shaggy", even the movie refused to touch one
THAT moldy...

Derek Janssen
***@rcn.com
Howard Fein
2004-04-14 18:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Some other H-B misconceptions I haven't noticed on this thread yet:

"THE FLINTSTONES/YOGI BEAR/HUCK HOUND was H-B's first series."

It was RUFF & REDDY in 1957- and on NBC in a weekend late afternoon
spot, NOT syndication. This cartoon, an unusual blend of humor and
adventure, has not had the long syndicated shelf life of other early
H-B series- perhaps because of its offbeat nature, or that station
managers figured kids wouldn't sit still for serealized stories. (Not
that THAT didn't keep ROCKY & BULLWINKLE from being a syndie staple
for decades!) It could also be because Reddy's voice is identical to
that of fellow canine Huck, and that could cause confusion.

"TOP CAT, THE JETSONS and JONNY QUEST were huge hits."

Each series only lasted one season in their original ABC prime-time
slots. Back then, a season's order of episodes was much larger- well
up into the thirties. There were 30 episodes of TOP CAT (Which you'd
never know, because any time I'd turn on a rerun in syndication or CN,
it'd be "Choo-Choo Falls In Love".), a mere 24 of THE JETSONS
(indicating it was cancelled earlier than most unrenewed series), and
I think 26 of QUEST. We can thank Saturday AM and syndicated reruns
for the enduring legacy of all three shows.

THE JETSONS immediately resurfaced the next season, 1963-64 on ABC's
fledgling Saturday AM lineup. Since then it was rarely off the air,
and became a convenient plug-in for a failed series on NBC's Saturday
AM lineup through the seventies into 1983. By 1975, one knew every
gag, line, musical cue and even laugh track laugh by heart. Amazing it
took over twenty years for a new version to be produced- even though
H-B had attempted to sell CBS a new Saturday AM version around 1974.
As a compromise, we got THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY 2200 A.D. instead.

TOP CAT reran on NBC's Saturday AM lineup through the mid-sixties. For
some reason, it didn't appear often in syndication in NYC, the city it
was 'set' in. But it had an unlikely revival in 1990(!) as part of the
syndicated Sunday AM FUNTASTIC WORLD OF HANNA-BARBERA. After an
episode of FANTASTIC MAX, there was good old T.C. and the gang- WITH
the laugh track, the way it oughta be. (I'm one of the few who was NOT
happy with syndication's and CN's removal of laughtracks from numerous
shows.)

JONNY QUEST had another long career as Saturday AM rerun staple, from
about 1967 through '72 and then from '79 to '81. It finally got a
heavily scorned new version in 1986 under the FUNTASTIC WORLD
umbrella. At least the original episodes were included in the package-
and the differences were extremely telling. A few made-for-cable
movies followed which destroyed series mythology by introducing
Jonny's previously-stated-to-be-dead MOTHER! The REAL ADVENTURES, made
exclusively for basic Turner cable, was supposed to take the gloves
off. But by that time, there had been so many comedy routines about
the, er, possibilities of two middle-aged guys and two pre-teens (one
of them Sikh- NOT Hindu, as often characterized) shacking up and
killing villians that the whole thing seemed toothless.

"Hoyt Curtin scored every H-B cartoon thoughout its existence."

His first scores were heard, believe it or not, in 1959 on the LOOPY
DE LOOP theatricals- not when THE FLINTSTONES arrived a year later
(another common misconception). There was actually some overlap
between Capital and Curtin; new episodes of the 'funny animal' shorts
were still being released WITH CAPITAL (commonly known as 'Seely')
SCORE in fall 1960 AFTER the 'STONES premiered on ABC in prime time.
When Yogi got his own starring trilogy midseason (January '61), new
episodes of all series (except RUFF & REDDY) made to that date were
released with Curtin score.

Most H-B series released from 1965 through '71 (except WACKY RACES and
WHERE'S HUDDLES) credit music to a Ted Nichols, whose name doesn't
seem to exist in any other mileu. There also seems to be an incursion
by well-known Hollywood composer Marty Paitch, who's credited as music
director in the theatrical HEY THERE, IT'S YOGI BEAR (which features
an entirely original score with hardly any familiar Curtin cues) and
gets partial credit (with Nichols) in the theatrical MAN CALLED
FLINTSTONE. In FLINTSTONE, much heretofore-unheard background music
premieres that would be recycled in many subsequent series (new
episodes of the GORILLA/POTAMUS and ANT/SQUIRREL trilogies, LAUREL &
HARDY, ABBOTT & COSTELLO, GULLIVER, CATTANOOGA CATS, HARLEM
GLOBETROTTERS, ROMAN HOLIDAYS). Many 'adventure' cues from the
previous season's JONNY QUEST (done by Curtin, NOT Nichols) come into
play as well.

Curtin WAS credited for pretty much every series made from 1972 to
'87. Paul De Korte was co-credited during this same period. (He's
probably the one behind increased use of harmonicas, acoustic guitar
and cowbells during the mid-seventies.) Curtin must've retired after
the fall 1987 output was completed, because everything produced from
that point on had scores credited to such diverse names as John Debney
(PUP NAMED SCOOBY-DOO), Clark Gassmann (MENTAL MISADVENTURES OF ED
GRIMLEY), Michael Taveras (FANTASTIC MAX) and Sven Liebak (the
made-for-syndie movies featuring various classic H-B characters).

"All H-B cartoons recycle music score from one show to another."

Till around 1972, that largely WAS the case- at least in comedic
series. But from 1973 on, entirely original score was created for each
series. There was still cross-pollination within seasons (Some of the
same stuff came up in SPEED BUGGY, GOOBER, JEANNIE and INCH HIGH
PRIVATE EYE, all made in '73) and some recycling (1975 TOM & JERRY
score re-used in 1977's LAFF-A-LYMPICS), but not to the degree as it
had been in 1969- when a single Autocat & Motormouse short could have
background music from THE JETSONS, MAGILLA GORILLA, SPACE GHOST and a
Curtin-scored Yogi short.

"H-B was the last studio to animate entirely in the U.S."

That honor would go to Filmation, which finally folded around 1988.
H-B started farming overseas in 1971 (FUNKY PHANTOM) and with
increasing frequency throughout the seventies. By 1985, most of its
product was done this way (with the possible exception of 13 GHOSTS OF
SCOOBY, PAW-PAWS, SMURFS and some new JETSONS). But animation quality
was decent, characters stayed on model and the classic SFX were
faithfully used- at least till around 1988. No part of the previous
sentence would apply to PHANTOM or 1973's ADDAMS FAMILY, which was
recognizable as H-B only by its voice cast (Lennie Weinrib, Janet
Waldo), laugh track and logo at the end of the show.

"H-B is the only studio workaholic actor Paul Frees never voiced for."

Frees has been used virtually everywhere (except WB and Filmation),
and that INCLUDES H-B. Various reference books deny it, but he's heard
in one of the first FLINTSTONE episodes, "The Baby-Sitter", notable as
the only one in which we see Barney's job (whose nature is STILL not
disclosed) or boss. His snarled "RUBBLE! Ge-e-e-t IN here!" is
reassuringly familiar to any veteran of Jay Ward. You also hear him as
the TV announcer giving the boys the bad news that the fight's been
blacked out- but they can watch a female banjo player instead.

Frees also does the famous second-season 'STONES "Happy Homemaker"
(which introduced the landmarked Curtin episode-ending cue) and at
least one TOP CAT. Then he re-surfaced big time in 1965, doing many
regular and incidental voices-most famously as Secret Squirrel's
assistant Morocco Mole (as Peter Lorre), boss Double-Q (as Eric Blore)
and nemesis Yellow Pinky (as Sydney Greenstreet). He also was THE
IMPOSSIBLES' Fluid Man (whose design was allegedly stolen and grafted
onto Freakazoid) and the FANTASTIC FOUR's Thing. Frees' talent for
sleazy villians served him well in the various H-B superadventure
cartoons made during that time.

"H-B invented and had the rights to the SFX that distinguishes its
product."

As has been discussed many times here and on Toonzone Forums, many of
the familiar SFX were associated with, among others, Hanna and Barbera
long before they opened their own studio. Their famous dashing-off
richochet, sound of glass breaking and manhole cover clanging were
heard from the earliest days of Tom and Jerry- and in MGM cartoons
made by Tex Avery as well. When watching Disney cartoons made in the
forties and fifties (especially the Goofy how-tos made by Jack
Kinney), a familiar sound might pop up once or twice a short.

It's very obvious that sound effects are in the public domain and
CANNOT be copyrighted. Otherwise, it wouldn't be possible to go on
various websites and order the entire inventory of what we call H-B
SFX- if you've got a couple hundred bucks. Through the mid-nineties,
more cartoon studios than not used these SFX in varying degrees at
some point in their production lives. To name a few: Larry Harmon, Ed
Graham, Cambria, Bakshi/Grantray, WB/7A, Filmation, DFE/Marvel, R-S,
DIC, Kuriami/Wolf, Calico, Film Roman, Spumco/Carbuncle, Games and,
yes, even DISNEY!

Ironically, in this century you hear them barely at all on any
made-for-CN product (only DEXTER'S LAB, really), but they still
prevail on most Nicktoons not made by Klasky-Csupo- especially
SPONGEBOB, TEENAGE ROBOT and even JIMMY NEUTRON!
Steve Carras
2004-04-14 21:41:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
"THE FLINTSTONES/YOGI BEAR/HUCK HOUND was H-B's first series."
It was RUFF & REDDY in 1957- and on NBC in a weekend late afternoon
spot, NOT syndication. This cartoon, an unusual blend of humor and
adventure, has not had the long syndicated shelf life of other early
H-B series- perhaps because of its offbeat nature, or that station
managers figured kids wouldn't sit still for serealized stories. (Not
that THAT didn't keep ROCKY & BULLWINKLE from being a syndie staple
for decades!) It could also be because Reddy's voice is identical to
that of fellow canine Huck, and that could cause confusion.
"TOP CAT, THE JETSONS and JONNY QUEST were huge hits."
Each series only lasted one season in their original ABC prime-time
slots. Back then, a season's order of episodes was much larger- well
up into the thirties. There were 30 episodes of TOP CAT (Which you'd
never know, because any time I'd turn on a rerun in syndication or CN,
it'd be "Choo-Choo Falls In Love".), a mere 24 of THE JETSONS
(indicating it was cancelled earlier than most unrenewed series), and
I think 26 of QUEST. We can thank Saturday AM and syndicated reruns
for the enduring legacy of all three shows.
THE JETSONS immediately resurfaced the next season, 1963-64 on ABC's
fledgling Saturday AM lineup. Since then it was rarely off the air,
and became a convenient plug-in for a failed series on NBC's Saturday
AM lineup through the seventies into 1983. By 1975, one knew every
gag, line, musical cue and even laugh track laugh by heart. Amazing it
took over twenty years for a new version to be produced- even though
H-B had attempted to sell CBS a new Saturday AM version around 1974.
As a compromise, we got THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY 2200 A.D. instead.
And JOSIE AND THE PUSSYVCATS, starring one Janet Waldo of the JETSONS,
as wlel as fellow HB workaholic Don Measick, in the meatime had
blasted off in ther second series (1972).
Post by Howard Fein
TOP CAT reran on NBC's Saturday AM lineup through the mid-sixties. For
some reason, it didn't appear often in syndication in NYC, the city it
was 'set' in. But it had an unlikely revival in 1990(!) as part of the
syndicated Sunday AM FUNTASTIC WORLD OF HANNA-BARBERA. After an
episode of FANTASTIC MAX, there was good old T.C. and the gang- WITH
the laugh track, the way it oughta be. (I'm one of the few who was NOT
happy with syndication's and CN's removal of laughtracks from numerous
shows.)
JONNY QUEST had another long career as Saturday AM rerun staple, from
about 1967 through '72 and then from '79 to '81. It finally got a
heavily scorned new version in 1986 under the FUNTASTIC WORLD
umbrella. At least the original episodes were included in the package-
and the differences were extremely telling. A few made-for-cable
movies followed which destroyed series mythology by introducing
Jonny's previously-stated-to-be-dead MOTHER! The REAL ADVENTURES, made
exclusively for basic Turner cable, was supposed to take the gloves
off. But by that time, there had been so many comedy routines about
the, er, possibilities of two middle-aged guys and two pre-teens (one
of them Sikh- NOT Hindu, as often characterized) shacking up and
killing villians that the whole thing seemed toothless.
"Hoyt Curtin scored every H-B cartoon thoughout its existence."
His first scores were heard, believe it or not, in 1959 on the LOOPY
DE LOOP theatricals- not when THE FLINTSTONES arrived a year later
(another common misconception). There was actually some overlap
between Capital and Curtin; new episodes of the 'funny animal' shorts
were still being released WITH CAPITAL (commonly known as 'Seely')
SCORE in fall 1960 AFTER the 'STONES premiered on ABC in prime time.
When Yogi got his own starring trilogy midseason (January '61), new
episodes of all series (except RUFF & REDDY) made to that date were
released with Curtin score.
Most H-B series released from 1965 through '71 (except WACKY RACES and
WHERE'S HUDDLES) credit music to a Ted Nichols, whose name doesn't
seem to exist in any other mileu. There also seems to be an incursion
by well-known Hollywood composer Marty Paitch, who's credited as music
director in the theatrical HEY THERE, IT'S YOGI BEAR (which features
an entirely original score with hardly any familiar Curtin cues) and
gets partial credit (with Nichols) in the theatrical MAN CALLED
FLINTSTONE. In FLINTSTONE, much heretofore-unheard background music
premieres that would be recycled in many subsequent series (new
episodes of the GORILLA/POTAMUS and ANT/SQUIRREL trilogies, LAUREL &
HARDY, ABBOTT & COSTELLO, GULLIVER, CATTANOOGA CATS, HARLEM
GLOBETROTTERS, ROMAN HOLIDAYS). Many 'adventure' cues from the
previous season's JONNY QUEST (done by Curtin, NOT Nichols) come into
play as well.
Curtin WAS credited for pretty much every series made from 1972 to
'87. Paul De Korte was co-credited during this same period. (He's
probably the one behind increased use of harmonicas, acoustic guitar
and cowbells during the mid-seventies.) Curtin must've retired after
the fall 1987 output was completed, because everything produced from
that point on had scores credited to such diverse names as John Debney
(PUP NAMED SCOOBY-DOO), Clark Gassmann (MENTAL MISADVENTURES OF ED
GRIMLEY), Michael Taveras (FANTASTIC MAX) and Sven Liebak (the
made-for-syndie movies featuring various classic H-B characters).
"All H-B cartoons recycle music score from one show to another."
Till around 1972, that largely WAS the case- at least in comedic
series. But from 1973 on, entirely original score was created for each
series. There was still cross-pollination within seasons (Some of the
same stuff came up in SPEED BUGGY, GOOBER, JEANNIE and INCH HIGH
PRIVATE EYE, all made in '73) and some recycling (1975 TOM & JERRY
score re-used in 1977's LAFF-A-LYMPICS), but not to the degree as it
had been in 1969- when a single Autocat & Motormouse short could have
background music from THE JETSONS, MAGILLA GORILLA, SPACE GHOST and a
Curtin-scored Yogi short.
In 1975, a few H-B TOM AND JERRYS (think "those impostors who shareth
tenant space with Grape Ape") had some with early 60s FLINSTONES
music,including a ranger episode.
Post by Howard Fein
"H-B was the last studio to animate entirely in the U.S."
That honor would go to Filmation, which finally folded around 1988.
H-B started farming overseas in 1971 (FUNKY PHANTOM) and with
increasing frequency throughout the seventies. By 1985, most of its
product was done this way (with the possible exception of 13 GHOSTS OF
SCOOBY, PAW-PAWS, SMURFS and some new JETSONS). But animation quality
was decent, characters stayed on model and the classic SFX were
faithfully used- at least till around 1988. No part of the previous
sentence would apply to PHANTOM or 1973's ADDAMS FAMILY, which was
recognizable as H-B only by its voice cast (Lennie Weinrib, Janet
Waldo), laugh track and logo at the end of the show.
"H-B is the only studio workaholic actor Paul Frees never voiced for."
Frees has been used virtually everywhere (except WB and Filmation),
WHoa, there..Paul Frees Win WB, but only (IIRC) in Chuck Jones's GAY
PUR-EE (actually coproduced with sapetstein-era UPA-Jack L.Warner had
a fit that exceeded Jones's 40s Papa BEar when finding out about
Chuck's "outside project..) and INCREDIBLE MR.LIMPET.Absolutely
correct on Filmaiton, and I believeany studio that opened after the
mid-1970s,incl.Ruby Spears,didn't use Frees with some exceptions (he
dided in 1986).
Post by Howard Fein
and that INCLUDES H-B. Various reference books deny it, but he's heard
in one of the first FLINTSTONE episodes, "The Baby-Sitter", notable as
the only one in which we see Barney's job (whose nature is STILL not
disclosed) or boss. His snarled "RUBBLE! Ge-e-e-t IN here!" is
reassuringly familiar to any veteran of Jay Ward. You also hear him as
the TV announcer giving the boys the bad news that the fight's been
blacked out- but they can watch a female banjo player instead.
Frees also does the famous second-season 'STONES "Happy Homemaker"
(which introduced the landmarked Curtin episode-ending cue) and at
least one TOP CAT. Then he re-surfaced big time in 1965, doing many
regular and incidental voices-most famously as Secret Squirrel's
assistant Morocco Mole (as Peter Lorre), boss Double-Q (as Eric Blore)
and nemesis Yellow Pinky (as Sydney Greenstreet). He also was THE
IMPOSSIBLES' Fluid Man (whose design was allegedly stolen and grafted
onto Freakazoid) and the FANTASTIC FOUR's Thing. Frees' talent for
sleazy villians served him well in the various H-B superadventure
cartoons made during that time.
"H-B invented and had the rights to the SFX that distinguishes its
product."
As has been discussed many times here and on Toonzone Forums, many of
the familiar SFX were associated with, among others, Hanna and Barbera
long before they opened their own studio. Their famous dashing-off
richochet, sound of glass breaking and manhole cover clanging were
heard from the earliest days of Tom and Jerry- and in MGM cartoons
made by Tex Avery as well. When watching Disney cartoons made in the
forties and fifties (especially the Goofy how-tos made by Jack
Kinney), a familiar sound might pop up once or twice a short.
It's very obvious that sound effects are in the public domain and
CANNOT be copyrighted. Otherwise, it wouldn't be possible to go on
various websites and order the entire inventory of what we call H-B
SFX- if you've got a couple hundred bucks. Through the mid-nineties,
more cartoon studios than not used these SFX in varying degrees at
some point in their production lives. To name a few: Larry Harmon, Ed
Graham, Cambria, Bakshi/Grantray, WB/7A, Filmation, DFE/Marvel, R-S,
DIC, Kuriami/Wolf, Calico, Film Roman, Spumco/Carbuncle, Games and,
yes, even DISNEY!
Ironically, in this century you hear them barely at all on any
made-for-CN product (only DEXTER'S LAB, really), but they still
prevail on most Nicktoons not made by Klasky-Csupo- especially
SPONGEBOB, TEENAGE ROBOT and even JIMMY NEUTRON!
I wonder WHAT familiar SFX Klasky-Csupo used if at all (if any problay
the WB FX--the HB ones would be "too square"-i.e.,Hanna Barbera's too
associated with n"stuff that no slef-respecting toonhead likes",ergo
the sound FX as well..)

I'll bett this was the reason for the casuality of the "missing HB
SFX".
Arty McToon
2004-04-12 17:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
1.That the studio wasn't just FRUGALLY minded--it was downright
cheapie cheapie,esp.working with Screen Gems (given, the budgets for
Columbia Pictures,esp.in the Harry Cohen era WERE, but the films were
very well done within the budgets)
When you compare H-B's production slate of 5 or 6 separate tv shows
(13 half hours per series per season) vs. one Disney full-length
animated feature done in a same one-year period, there shouldn't be
any complaints on the budgets or workmanship.
Post by Steve Carras
2.No HB before CARTOON CARTOONS exist.
3.Mo HB before the 1990s exist.
4.SMURFS are the only HB shw done, and therefore there's cause du jour
to detest the studio.In reaity the studio went back to the
fifties..and in the sixties created MEMROABLKE stuff like MAGILLA,
JOSIE, FLINTSTONES,JETSONS,YOGI,RUFF AND REDDY,SINBAD JR.,etc.,etc.
Actually it seems the mindset on the Cartoon Network is that the only
H-B show that really mattered was "Scooby Doo" and the rest of the H-B
library can be shunted off to Boomerang (digital satellite) land.
Post by Steve Carras
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.
Of course, Warner Bros. Animation had shut down in the late 1960s
(their animation shorts in their last years of operation had a
Hanna-Barbera look to them) and wasn't resurrected until the late
1970s for tv specials. H-B was actually tops in the tv animation game
in the late 1960s and 70s (with Filmation close behind) after WB's
demise since many more people were watching television than going to
the movies at the time.
Post by Steve Carras
6.Janet Waldo, Alan Reed,ec.were just Saturday AM voice actors with no
radio expierece.Even Daws Butler and Don Messick (who DID work in
theatricals,just unbilled for the most part before the sixties, that's
all) get this.(In realtiy, though little if at all heard prioir to HB,
the above, and Penny "Blondie" (after all!) Singleton,etc. hd VAST
expierence on radio).
Janet Waldo acted in the radio series "Meet Corliss Archer" (about a
rambunctious teenage girl). Alan Reed (who also went by the name
Teddy Bergman) played poet Falstaff Oppenshaw (who invented neat poems
in "Allen's Alley") in the "Fred Allen" radio show and fast talking
Pasquale in the radio comedy series "Life with Luigi".
Post by Steve Carras
7.ALL HB cartoons are made for the Peggy Charens (The
SMURFS,etc.).AAnyone WATCHING the 1958-1961 YOGIs, or TOP CAT with his
bon vivant savior faire and big city "Bilko"/Phil Silvers cunning
would know OTHERWISE.Judy Jetson MUST have caught on with ABC in 1962,
because A DATE WITH JET SCREAMER< portraying the Jude-stress as a
rebellious teen, was the first broadcast JETSONS (either the ROSIE one
had been made first as someitmes mentioned or the gang cfredit-ending
created for the original was done after the ROSIE debut was finished).
ANd of course we all know what swaggering Neantherthals, if you'll
pardon a pun, our dear friend Mr.Flintstone was, and how cunning WIlma
was, a la the HONEYMOONERS.(QUICK DRAW's another that was MUCH smarter
than mentioned and of course the Jay Ward infleunce all 'round on the
studio's 1957 TV debut, RUFF AND REDDY)
Peggy Charren's ACT work started in the early 1970s. TV Networks
faced pressure around the assassination of President John F. Kennedy
to tone down violence in all tv program. The assassinations of Martin
Luther King Jr and Robert F. Kennedy in 1968 plus the carnage of the
Vietnam War on the evening news added fuel to making kids tv
educational and less violent. H-B's action shows were cancelled
("Space Ghost", "Herculoids", "Birdman") and comedy cartoons were the
norm ("Wacky Races", "Scooby Doo").
Post by Steve Carras
8.There's no sex appeal,esp.in the 1970s ones (obviously either from
straight guys who NEVER saw BUTCH CASSIDY-not the 1969 classic 20th
Century-Fox flick with Paul Newman (before his, uh salad days) and
Robert Redford but the teen rock group 1973 one), JOSIE, or
SCOOBY--I'm a Velma guy myself).
Zandor and Tara on the "Herculoids" were the cool couple.
Post by Steve Carras
9.ALL HB shows "preach morality" and sell toys (pre-Powerpuff and
CN,anyhow).
In the 70s, most H-B shows featured teens solving mysteries and
singing groovy songs. "Archie" was the "bomb" back then.
Post by Steve Carras
10.Kinda related to #1, but just remembred..the Captiol/John Seely
(and also Associated Produvctioon and KPM music) in the cartoons, and
later Hoyt Curtin and Ted Nicholas's cues, are the ULTIMATE in
cheapness (as opposed to the ORIGINAL Looney Tunes scores for
Warnrs,or what Chuck Jones and the like did).Never mind of course the
TELEVSION series schedule..also of course poeple forget WHY TV at
all--book blocking in theatres had collapsed, cinemas werre less and
less showing toons...
In producing 5 to 6 shows in one season, things have got to be re-used
again. At least, H-B finished everything on schedule and in budget
and they being on good terms with the tv bosses...that made them the
TV networks' executives' (CBS's Fred Silverman for one) favorite
studio to use.
Derek Janssen
2004-04-12 21:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
6.Janet Waldo, Alan Reed,ec.were just Saturday AM voice actors with no
radio expierece.Even Daws Butler and Don Messick (who DID work in
theatricals,just unbilled for the most part before the sixties, that's
all) get this.(In realtiy, though little if at all heard prioir to HB,
the above, and Penny "Blondie" (after all!) Singleton,etc. hd VAST
expierence on radio).
In fact, one of vintage-HB's cool points was the voices' experience with
comic old-radio timing, coupled with the (ex-Looney) writers' occasional
tendency to throw in well-known signature gags (which were still
prevalent when most of the radio shows moved to TV in the late
50's/early 60's), or write episodes around them as an excuse:

Play a first or second-season Flintstones--particularly an episode where
Fred encounters the ubiquitous Frank Nelson storekeeper--against a
vintage "Jack Benny" that invented said running gag, and you WILL hear
the same comic timing in the scripts.
(Fred: "Look, all I want is to be treated like a customer!"
Nelson: "All right, but you won't like it...")
Post by Arty McToon
Janet Waldo acted in the radio series "Meet Corliss Archer" (about a
rambunctious teenage girl). Alan Reed (who also went by the name
Teddy Bergman) played poet Falstaff Oppenshaw (who invented neat poems
in "Allen's Alley") in the "Fred Allen" radio show and fast talking
Pasquale in the radio comedy series "Life with Luigi".
Not to mention Bea Benaderet on practically EVERY radio comedy in
existence (most of her non-Betty "Flintstones" voices can be traced back
to at least one "Fibber McGee" or "Jack Benny" character at some point)
And as for Mel Blanc's "Jack Benny" history, space hardly permits... :)
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
9.ALL HB shows "preach morality" and sell toys (pre-Powerpuff and
CN,anyhow).
In the 70s, most H-B shows featured teens solving mysteries and
singing groovy songs. "Archie" was the "bomb" back then.
And technically, it was 70's Filmation that invented "preaching
morality", but that didn't start until "Fat Albert", and the
Shazam/Isis-and-afterwards live-action series...
The Archie-verses remained harmlessly moronic until "US of Archies"
spoiled the whole thing.

Derek Janssen (Truth: the Anti-CN)
***@rcn.com
Arty McToon
2004-04-12 21:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Janssen
Play a first or second-season Flintstones--particularly an episode where
Fred encounters the ubiquitous Frank Nelson storekeeper--against a
vintage "Jack Benny" that invented said running gag, and you WILL hear
the same comic timing in the scripts.
(Fred: "Look, all I want is to be treated like a customer!"
Nelson: "All right, but you won't like it...")
Yeeeeeeeessss! That's right. :-)
Post by Derek Janssen
Post by Arty McToon
Janet Waldo acted in the radio series "Meet Corliss Archer" (about a
rambunctious teenage girl). Alan Reed (who also went by the name
Teddy Bergman) played poet Falstaff Oppenshaw (who invented neat poems
in "Allen's Alley") in the "Fred Allen" radio show and fast talking
Pasquale in the radio comedy series "Life with Luigi".
Not to mention Bea Benaderet on practically EVERY radio comedy in
existence (most of her non-Betty "Flintstones" voices can be traced back
to at least one "Fibber McGee" or "Jack Benny" character at some point)
And as for Mel Blanc's "Jack Benny" history, space hardly permits... :)
Bea Benaderet played Blanche Morton, George Burns and Gracie Allen's
next door neighbor in Burns and Allen's radio program. Mel Blanc
(using his Hardy Har Har hyena voice in H-B's "Lippy the Lion") played
"The Happy Postman" on the series who was always on the verge of
tears.

Daws Butler and June Foray played various roles on Stan Freberg's
radio series in the 1950s...one of the last regular radio
entertainment programs of its time.
Post by Derek Janssen
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
9.ALL HB shows "preach morality" and sell toys (pre-Powerpuff and
CN,anyhow).
In the 70s, most H-B shows featured teens solving mysteries and
singing groovy songs. "Archie" was the "bomb" back then.
And technically, it was 70's Filmation that invented "preaching
morality", but that didn't start until "Fat Albert", and the
Shazam/Isis-and-afterwards live-action series...
The Archie-verses remained harmlessly moronic until "US of Archies"
spoiled the whole thing.
Filmation went to the trouble of hiring UCLA psychologists in
incorporating "today's lesson" into the stories. I didn't mind the
lessons too much if the story was reasonably entertaining. I could
always turn the channel if the lesson gets boring or the story is
reran one too many times. :-)

H-B relied on basic animation storytelling without PH.D help most of
the time.
Steve Carras
2004-04-13 00:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Janssen
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
6.Janet Waldo, Alan Reed,ec.were just Saturday AM voice actors with no
radio expierece.Even Daws Butler and Don Messick (who DID work in
theatricals,just unbilled for the most part before the sixties, that's
all) get this.(In realtiy, though little if at all heard prioir to HB,
the above, and Penny "Blondie" (after all!) Singleton,etc. hd VAST
expierence on radio).
In fact, one of vintage-HB's cool points was the voices' experience with
comic old-radio timing, coupled with the (ex-Looney) writers' occasional
tendency to throw in well-known signature gags (which were still
prevalent when most of the radio shows moved to TV in the late
One of my favorite points about the FLINTSTONES,as well.
Post by Derek Janssen
Play a first or second-season Flintstones--particularly an episode where
Fred encounters the ubiquitous Frank Nelson storekeeper--against a
vintage "Jack Benny" that invented said running gag, and you WILL hear
the same comic timing in the scripts.
(Fred: "Look, all I want is to be treated like a customer!"
Nelson: "All right, but you won't like it...")
Post by Arty McToon
Janet Waldo acted in the radio series "Meet Corliss Archer" (about a
rambunctious teenage girl).
Shortly after she'd, uh taken off in THE JETSONS, Waldo, who of course
was just reprising the Corliss Arhcer (1943-1956) radio charcater
here, was being hired (she and Frank Nelsonon the FLINSTONES served
the exact same purpose as such as Sterling Holloway over at
Disney--and Verna Felton showed up at both studios but at HB only
played the Mother in Law which Janet took over in 1966(, THE FLINTSTOS
starting featuresqe bobysoxer/teenyboppr girls,m ost notablyasthe
first ever teenage Pebbles (GROOM GLOOM: Sept.26,1963) and on a
quasi-JETSONS epsidoe with Harvey Korman's Gazoo THE LONG LONG LONG
WEEKEND (1966) as, you guessed it, a Judy like teenage girl,not to
mention a couple of babysitters (one of the Jetson girl's veyr
earliest even beofre GROOM GLOOM, VENTRILOGUIST BARNEY or whatever
that ws calledd--with Mel Blanc as Barney AND as him doing
Pebbles--"Bring me some more grape juice Daddy",plugging Welch's
sponsorship--and on the Way Outs one, whose title I forget).Janet
Waldo as I mentioned also played WIlma mother later.

Don;'t forget..Howard MacNear (or I think that's him) as his Flloyd
the Barbera from ANDY GRIFFITH and a few others reprsing earlier biits
or character roles from elsewhere appeared on HB. Like in "Yeay
yeah..(pause) OOooo",ALWAYS playing a doctor!! Except for INVISIBLE
BARNEY (1962), the only 1962-63 (third season)) FLINSTONES after the
episodes witht he refilmed open had been done, to bear its original
ending (one of the earliest "We'll have a gay old time".>), to still
have the original credits (vis a vis the others from 1962-1963 that
had the redone titles due to the earlier song, sponsor plugs and
insuffient crdits on the earlier seasons--other 1962-63 FLINTSTONES
had John Stephenson and Hal Smith credited in syndication, before
1962's THE TWITCHwhich also showed the chnage in credit and title
fonts) ,otherwise Howard MacNear, whose last HB INVISIBLE BARNEY was
at least FLINTSTONE wise, went uncredited for so many years. (The
reason of course again whether he was credited or not, he was only in
the first two-three seasons worth, and as we know and as I already
mentioned several times now, (in 1966) to have some uniformity what
with the famous "that we all know and love", FLINTSTONE theme, those
early episodes had endings and credits like those of the later in
sydnciaiton due to the theme song change, and couple of other
factors..)


Today in movies (with the upcoming Olsen Tewins Warnr Bros.Dualstar
feature NEW YORK MINUTE), Eugene LEvy appears, and if he'd been a
major character acotor in the boomer era no doubt HB,
Filmaiton,etc.,would have featuredhim..like Howard McNear,Janet Waldo
and Frank Nelson at Hanna Barbera, Eugene Levy,as you mention oone
time over at rec.arts.movies.current-film,s I believe on BRINGING DOWN
THE HOUSE(Touchstone/Disney which had Eugene in a supporting role),
gets dorky white guy parts, and one major strength to many of those
"one voice" actors of the FLINTSTONES era like Nelson,etc.was their
ability to strike comics sparks with the same thing only wiht
variaitons. (Disney animation AND Live action films, as LEonard Maltin
will tell you, did this many times over).
Then there is Zooey Deschanel, and the femme sarcastic du jour of the
1990s, Janeane Garofalo, who seemed to turn up in severy flick you
saw..

Alan Reed (who also went by the name
Post by Derek Janssen
Post by Arty McToon
Teddy Bergman) played poet Falstaff Oppenshaw (who invented neat poems
in "Allen's Alley") in the "Fred Allen" radio show and fast talking
Pasquale in the radio comedy series "Life with Luigi".
Teddy Bergman, if I recall correctly, WAS ALan Reed's real name!
Post by Derek Janssen
Not to mention Bea Benaderet on practically EVERY radio comedy in
existence (most of her non-Betty "Flintstones" voices can be traced back
to at least one "Fibber McGee" or "Jack Benny" character at some point)
And as for Mel Blanc's "Jack Benny" history, space hardly permits... :)
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
9.ALL HB shows "preach morality" and sell toys (pre-Powerpuff and
CN,anyhow).
In the 70s, most H-B shows featured teens solving mysteries and
singing groovy songs. "Archie" was the "bomb" back then.
Yeah, I know..(I actually much preferred the comics, whcih, since the
1980s when the reprints and the originald started AWARDING CREDIT,
like with MAD, SUPERMAN,etc., in a MAD/King Features/Looney TUnes like
situaiton i was at LAST able to identify which artist did what and to
tell the various drawing styles..I have a Archie 1987 (Betty, Veronica
and Archie) in a malt shop poster that I got in San Franscisco in
1987, signed by Dan eCarlo (no, I didn;t meet him)..
BugBarbecue
2004-04-12 18:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Weren't every Saturday morning cartoon from the 60's and early 70's from the
HB studios? It sure seemed like it.
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
1.That the studio wasn't just FRUGALLY minded--it was downright
cheapie cheapie,esp.working with Screen Gems (given, the budgets for
Columbia Pictures,esp.in the Harry Cohen era WERE, but the films were
very well done within the budgets)
When you compare H-B's production slate of 5 or 6 separate tv shows
(13 half hours per series per season) vs. one Disney full-length
animated feature done in a same one-year period, there shouldn't be
any complaints on the budgets or workmanship.
Post by Steve Carras
2.No HB before CARTOON CARTOONS exist.
3.Mo HB before the 1990s exist.
4.SMURFS are the only HB shw done, and therefore there's cause du jour
to detest the studio.In reaity the studio went back to the
fifties..and in the sixties created MEMROABLKE stuff like MAGILLA,
JOSIE, FLINTSTONES,JETSONS,YOGI,RUFF AND REDDY,SINBAD JR.,etc.,etc.
Actually it seems the mindset on the Cartoon Network is that the only
H-B show that really mattered was "Scooby Doo" and the rest of the H-B
library can be shunted off to Boomerang (digital satellite) land.
Post by Steve Carras
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.
Of course, Warner Bros. Animation had shut down in the late 1960s
(their animation shorts in their last years of operation had a
Hanna-Barbera look to them) and wasn't resurrected until the late
1970s for tv specials. H-B was actually tops in the tv animation game
in the late 1960s and 70s (with Filmation close behind) after WB's
demise since many more people were watching television than going to
the movies at the time.
Post by Steve Carras
6.Janet Waldo, Alan Reed,ec.were just Saturday AM voice actors with no
radio expierece.Even Daws Butler and Don Messick (who DID work in
theatricals,just unbilled for the most part before the sixties, that's
all) get this.(In realtiy, though little if at all heard prioir to HB,
the above, and Penny "Blondie" (after all!) Singleton,etc. hd VAST
expierence on radio).
Janet Waldo acted in the radio series "Meet Corliss Archer" (about a
rambunctious teenage girl). Alan Reed (who also went by the name
Teddy Bergman) played poet Falstaff Oppenshaw (who invented neat poems
in "Allen's Alley") in the "Fred Allen" radio show and fast talking
Pasquale in the radio comedy series "Life with Luigi".
Post by Steve Carras
7.ALL HB cartoons are made for the Peggy Charens (The
SMURFS,etc.).AAnyone WATCHING the 1958-1961 YOGIs, or TOP CAT with his
bon vivant savior faire and big city "Bilko"/Phil Silvers cunning
would know OTHERWISE.Judy Jetson MUST have caught on with ABC in 1962,
because A DATE WITH JET SCREAMER< portraying the Jude-stress as a
rebellious teen, was the first broadcast JETSONS (either the ROSIE one
had been made first as someitmes mentioned or the gang cfredit-ending
created for the original was done after the ROSIE debut was finished).
ANd of course we all know what swaggering Neantherthals, if you'll
pardon a pun, our dear friend Mr.Flintstone was, and how cunning WIlma
was, a la the HONEYMOONERS.(QUICK DRAW's another that was MUCH smarter
than mentioned and of course the Jay Ward infleunce all 'round on the
studio's 1957 TV debut, RUFF AND REDDY)
Peggy Charren's ACT work started in the early 1970s. TV Networks
faced pressure around the assassination of President John F. Kennedy
to tone down violence in all tv program. The assassinations of Martin
Luther King Jr and Robert F. Kennedy in 1968 plus the carnage of the
Vietnam War on the evening news added fuel to making kids tv
educational and less violent. H-B's action shows were cancelled
("Space Ghost", "Herculoids", "Birdman") and comedy cartoons were the
norm ("Wacky Races", "Scooby Doo").
Post by Steve Carras
8.There's no sex appeal,esp.in the 1970s ones (obviously either from
straight guys who NEVER saw BUTCH CASSIDY-not the 1969 classic 20th
Century-Fox flick with Paul Newman (before his, uh salad days) and
Robert Redford but the teen rock group 1973 one), JOSIE, or
SCOOBY--I'm a Velma guy myself).
Zandor and Tara on the "Herculoids" were the cool couple.
Post by Steve Carras
9.ALL HB shows "preach morality" and sell toys (pre-Powerpuff and
CN,anyhow).
In the 70s, most H-B shows featured teens solving mysteries and
singing groovy songs. "Archie" was the "bomb" back then.
Post by Steve Carras
10.Kinda related to #1, but just remembred..the Captiol/John Seely
(and also Associated Produvctioon and KPM music) in the cartoons, and
later Hoyt Curtin and Ted Nicholas's cues, are the ULTIMATE in
cheapness (as opposed to the ORIGINAL Looney Tunes scores for
Warnrs,or what Chuck Jones and the like did).Never mind of course the
TELEVSION series schedule..also of course poeple forget WHY TV at
all--book blocking in theatres had collapsed, cinemas werre less and
less showing toons...
In producing 5 to 6 shows in one season, things have got to be re-used
again. At least, H-B finished everything on schedule and in budget
and they being on good terms with the tv bosses...that made them the
TV networks' executives' (CBS's Fred Silverman for one) favorite
studio to use.
Derek Janssen
2004-04-12 21:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by BugBarbecue
Weren't every Saturday morning cartoon from the 60's and early 70's from the
HB studios? It sure seemed like it.
Depends which network--
ABC had the Superfriends and post-Scooby HB teens, CBS had the Filmation
live-actions, and NBC was the House the (DePatie-Freleng) Pink Panther
Built.
(Except for the occasional Rankin-Bass, but that's going TOO far back)

Derek Janssen
***@rcn.com
Arty McToon
2004-04-12 21:03:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Janssen
Post by BugBarbecue
Weren't every Saturday morning cartoon from the 60's and early 70's from the
HB studios? It sure seemed like it.
Depends which network--
ABC had the Superfriends and post-Scooby HB teens, CBS had the Filmation
live-actions, and NBC was the House the (DePatie-Freleng) Pink Panther
Built.
(Except for the occasional Rankin-Bass, but that's going TOO far back)
Allen Duchovny and Fred Silverman who were both CBS's heads of
Saturday programming had excellent relationships with Hanna-Barbera
(Space Ghost, Herculoids, Scooby Doo, Wacky Races, Speed Buggy) and
Filmation (DC Heroes (Batman/Superman/Aquaman), Archies, Tarzan) and
both studios supplied the programs on CBS's schedules from the 1960s
to the 1970s (Duchovny later took an executive position for Filmation
in the 1970s after he left CBS and Silverman took over). When
Silverman moved to NBC as head of daytime programming in the late
1970s, Hanna-Barbera (Smurfs, Fred and Barney, Space Stars, CB Bears)
and Filmation (Archie/Sabrina, Flash Gordon) supplied the bulk of the
programs there again.
Howard Fein
2004-04-14 16:17:56 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com (Arty McToon) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...

When Silverman moved to NBC as head of daytime programming in the late
Post by Arty McToon
1970s, Hanna-Barbera (Smurfs, Fred and Barney, Space Stars, CB Bears)
and Filmation (Archie/Sabrina, Flash Gordon) supplied the bulk of the
programs there again.
Fred Silverman took over NBC in the spring of 1978, when the fall '78
schedules were already set. So it wasn't until the following fall that
his touch was really evident.

While NBC relied the least on H-B programming up to that point in the
seventies, it still carried a fair amount: ROMAN HOLIDAYS, SEALAB
2020, ADDAMS FAMILY, BUTCH CASSIDY, INCH HIGH, WHEELIE, C.B. BEARS.
All except ADDAMS ran one season of 13 episodes and were cancelled
without even repeating that one cycle the following season in an early
afternoon or Sunday slot (the common practice for ABC and CBS shows
with only one season of originals)- a courtesy at least ADDAMS was
extended.

NBC was more innovative during the seventies than the other two
networks in its programming. It ran game shows (RUNAROUND),
educational stuff (HOT DOG, a revival of MR. WIZARD), and a whole mess
of live-action sitcoms and adventure series from D'Angelo-Bullock.
(Only one, RUN JOE RUN, was successful enough to result in a second
short season of originals. The 'lucky' ones ran a whole one-year
cycle- McDUFF THE TALKING DOG, THE RED HAND GANG, SEARCH & RESCUE and
others were yanked midseason.) NBC was pretty much an also-ran during
this time. It's only notable successes were endless reruns of the Pink
Panther and other DFE theatricals; several Kroft shows (SIGMUND was
actually the only one to get a second-season order until ABC's
SUPERSHOW); the obscure Farmhouse Films' EMERGENCY +4 and Filmation's
STAR TREK adaptation.

But many shows- both live-action and animated- were yanked midseason,
to be replaced by yet another rerun cycle of such oldies as THE
JETSONS, SPACE GHOST, HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS, SPEED BUGGY and HONG KONG
PHOOEY. Watching NBC on Saturday morning more resembled watching
syndicated weekday reruns on an independent station.

The horrible failure of NBC's fall 1976 and '77 lineups (only
Filmation's SPACE SENTINELS saw the next season, but entirely reruns)
and the rejection of most live-action Saturday AM fare in general did
bring about somewhat of a return to basics on NBC in 1978. The huge
success of LAFF-A-LYMPICS on ABC the previous season inspired another
extended melange of classic and new characters, YOGI'S SPACE RACE. The
various segments were dropped or broken up during the season (GALAXY
GOOF-UPS did attain somewhat of a cult following once rerun in a
syndie package with older Yogi Bear material.) GODZILLA was a big
success, the first H-B series on NBC since THE BANANA SPLITS to have
more than one season of originals. But its stable mate, JANA OF THE
JUNGLE was dumped early on, bringing on a somewhat welcome rerunning
of JONNY QUEST- whose gritty, violent content seemed out of place in
the age of Peggy Charren. Even stranger, an entirely new FLINTSTONES
series bowed in midseason. This was the beginning of a rather long
Saturday AM revival of that franchise, and reinforced the realization
that the late Alan Reed was sorely missed.

(During midseason 1978-79, NBC somewhat bravely brought back the
long-lost, but beloved, ALVIN SHOW from 1961! While not renewed in the
fall, the reruns struck enough of a nerve to revive the Chipmunks'
recording career, and a hugely successful 1983 revival series on NBC
from Ruby-Spears.)

The NBC fall 1979 lineup, the first with Silverman's imprinteur, was
almost entirely H-B. Every new show (except new GODZILLAs and
Filmations short-lived cult favorite FLASH GORDON) was a ridiculous
derivative of an old property. Casper the Ghost (a new H-B acquisition
no doubt inspired by the success of its Popeye revival on CBS the
previous season) became a law enforcer; Stan Lee's Thing was buddy to
a bunch of generic cartoon teeangers in generic comedy misadventures
(The fact that Joe Baker did the Thing's voice as a Jimmy Durante
imitation proved that this was indeed a sham). The Harlem
Globetrotters became bumbling bionic superheroes- a rip-off/tribute to
H-B's old IMPOSSIBLES- long after the Bionic craze had faded. Al
Capp's Schmoo was grafted into another Meddling Kids retread. All of
these new shows had the notorious 'H-B laughtrack', which sounds even
less natural than the Glenn Glenn laughtrack commonly used in sitcoms.
None of them made it to the next season.

An actor's strike made things difficult for cartoons scheduled to
premiere in fall 1980. So the first few weeks during which new
episodes are usually aired, ABC and CBS merely continued to rerun its
H-B and Filmation staples from the previous season. NBC dragged out
yet more reruns of ancient H-B shows (FUNKY PHANTOM? DYNOMUTT?!) until
the strike was settled. Not much original material aired on NBC that
season (reruns of JETSONS, PHOOEY, QUEST and WB theatricals
prevailed), but the 90-minute FLINTSTONES variety block (six series of
entirely new shorts, one of them teaming Fred, Barney and the
Schmoo!!) was successful enough to merit a short second season of
originals and several years of reruns.

Considering the general lack of success Filmation had on NBC (only
STAR TREK earned a second-season new order, while WALDO KITTY ran one
season and a 1977 Archie revival bombed miserably), it was surprising
to the network pick up reruns of CBS' successful late seventies BATMAN
and the SUPER SEVEN anthology it anchored- especially considering that
over at ABC, H-B was still making new episodes (a fourth consecutive
season) of SUPERFRIENDS- of which Batman was a staple. Supposedly,
H-B's SPACE STARS anthology (new episodes of classic superheroes Space
Ghost and Herculoids mixed with entirely original characters) was to
premiere on NBC in fall 1980- but was postponed a whole year. Exact
reasons are unclear (the actors' strike; getting the rights to
characters), but perhaps Silverman felt plugging in BATMAN reruns
would be a suitable substitute.

Of course, a year later in fall 1981, those little blue mutants would
reverse NBC's fortunes as a Saturday AM has-been forever- or at least
a decade.
Arty McToon
2004-04-14 22:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
Of course, a year later in fall 1981, those little blue mutants would
reverse NBC's fortunes as a Saturday AM has-been forever- or at least
a decade.
Fred Silverman saw his daughter playing with a "Smurf" doll around
1980 and thought the character would make a cool animated cartoon
show. He got in touch with his usual business contacts at
Hanna-Barbera to develop a series for NBC. Simple as that.

Silverman's prime-time work on NBC was a disaster. His entire new 1978
fall series were all cancelled in months. I think a few successful
programs did air during his NBC tenure such as "CHiPs" and "Diff'rent
Strokes" before Brandon Tartikoff took over.

Silverman later started his own production company in 1984 and
co-produced the CBS "Pandamonium" series with Marvel Productions and
ABC's "Mighty Orbots" with Tokyo Movie Shinsha and MGM. He later
produced the hit prime-time series "Matlock", "Jake and the Fat Man",
and "Diagnosis: Murder."
Arty McToon
2004-04-14 16:55:12 UTC
Permalink
When Fred Silverman moved to ABC and made it #1 in prime time ("Happy
Days", "Laverne and Shirley", "Charlie's Angels", "Love Boat") in the
mid to late 1970s, he probably saw to it that "Scooby Doo" moved to
ABC Saturdays as well in 1976 after a long CBS run (with
"Laff-A-Lympics" a cartoon version of ABC's popular "The Superstars"
series and "Battle of the Network Stars" specials).

It probably was no coincidence that "Freddie" the leader had the same
name as network boss Silverman who suggested to Hanna-Barbera to
create a mystery cartoon with teenagers and a cowardly pet dog.
Post by Arty McToon
Allen Duchovny and Fred Silverman who were both CBS's heads of
Saturday programming had excellent relationships with Hanna-Barbera
(Space Ghost, Herculoids, Scooby Doo, Wacky Races, Speed Buggy) and
Filmation (DC Heroes (Batman/Superman/Aquaman), Archies, Tarzan) and
both studios supplied the programs on CBS's schedules from the 1960s
to the 1970s (Duchovny later took an executive position for Filmation
in the 1970s after he left CBS and Silverman took over).
Howard Fein
2004-04-13 19:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Janssen
Post by BugBarbecue
Weren't every Saturday morning cartoon from the 60's and early 70's from the
HB studios? It sure seemed like it.
Depends which network--
ABC had the Superfriends and post-Scooby HB teens, CBS had the Filmation
live-actions, and NBC was the House the (DePatie-Freleng) Pink Panther
Built.
(Except for the occasional Rankin-Bass, but that's going TOO far back)
Derek Janssen
Not quite. Hanna-Barbera really only became dominant in the Saturday
AM arena around 1966, when the whole concept of cartoons made
especially for a network's Saturday AM lineup was still in its
infancy. Prior to '66, shows made for Saturday AM were made largely by
Total/Leonardo (UNDERDOG, TENNESSEE TUXEDO), Ward (HIPPETY HOOPER) and
KFS (THE BEATLES). H-B had its first pure Saturday AM series in 1965
on NBC: The ATOM ANT/SECRET SQUIRREL franchise, which was pretty
indistinguishable from all the 'three unrelated shorts starring a
different funny humanized animal' series it had made for syndication
the previous seven years.

It was the huge success of SPACE GHOST in 1966 that made H-B a major
Saturday AM player, leading to a huge raft of similar superadventure
cartoons. But as early as '66, Saturday AM cartoons were also produced
by DFE (SUPER SIX), Filmation (numerous DC superheroes), KFS (COOL
McCOOL), Rankin-Bass (KING KONG) and Format (LONE RANGER). In fall
1969, two toy-based cartoons, HOT WHEELS and SKYHAWKS were put out by
outfits so obscure I don't even remember their names. It's only
because of lapsed or tangled ownership issues that we don't see any of
these shows rerun in syndication or on cable- whereas Worldvision and
later Ted Turner laid claim to most of the H-B inventory.

H-B, Filmation and DFE dominated network animation in the seventies-
and for that matter, ALL TV animation. (First-run syndicated cartoons
pretty much ceased to be produced from about 1967 through 1983.) As
Derek noted, Rankin-Bass continued to be a force through 1973 with new
episodes of THE JACKSON 5IVE, OSMONDS, KID POWER and several busted
pilots on ABC'S SATURDAY SUPERSTAR MOVIE. Farmhouse Films made the
successful EMERGENCY+4 series; Air International Programs (AIP) the
single-season AROUND THE WORLD IN 80 DAYS.

As far as network/studio relationships, all three networks carried
much H-B product through the seventies, probably the heaviest on CBS.
The entire CBS 1972-73 lineup was from that studio.

Filmation shows are most associated with CBS (with its most successful
properties, ARCHIE, FAT ALBERT and TARZAN having aired on that
network), but ABC began making inroads as early as 1967 (JOURNEY TO
THE CENTER OF THE EARTH). NBC's first Filmation series wasn't until
1973's STAR TREK.

DFE was heavily associated with NBC (Numerous Panther permutations,
HERE COMES THE GRUMP, DOCTOR DOOLITTLE, BARKLEYS, HOUNDCATS, PLANET OF
THE APES), with token series on ABC (ODDBALL COUPLE) and CBS (BAILEY'S
COMETS).

R-B was almost exclusive to ABC (SMOKEY THE BEAR, RELUCTANT DRAGON,
those mentioned in the paragraph above) with TOMFOOLERY on NBC.

By 1975, more and more of Saturday AM was devoted to live-action
series from Filmation, Krofft and the erstwhile D'Angelo-Bullock. So
it seems like the Big Three animation houses took a powder until 1978,
when the network suits took a look at the ratings and commissioned
more cartoons. That's when Ruby-Spears, an H-B offshoot in animation
style that later became co-owned with its parent studio, began.

For the first few years, all R-S product (FANGFACE, PLASTIC MAN,
HEATHCLIFF, THUNDARR, MORK & MINDY) aired on ABC. In 1983, it branched
out to the other three networks with abandon. R-S' debatably most
successful series, ALVIN & THE CHIPMUNKS and MISTER T, continued the
NBC ratings dominance began by THE SMURFS.

As the eighties progressed, a many more studios invaded Saturday AM:
DIC, Marvel, Nelvana, Film Roman, TMS, Silver Star- with Nelvana
dominating on ABC and Roman on CBS. DIC was EVERYWHERE (all three
networks, syndie) from 1984 on, and became powerful enough to comprise
NBC's entire fall 1989 lineup. This diversity was made necessary by
the virtual demise of Filmation (whose last series on Saturday AM was
1982's GILLIGAN'S PLANET, syndie 1986's GHOST BUSTERS) and dissolution
of DFE into Marvel.

H-B pressed on through the eighties, but by the nineties one got the
distinct impression it was on its last legs- at least as we knew it.
Such late entries as BILL & TED'S ADVENTURES, GRAVEDALE HIGH, YOUNG
ROBIN HOOD and the cult faves SWAT KATS and PIRATES OF DARK WATER were
barely recognizable as H-B series. The animation quality had improved
somewhat, but the energy was largely gone, as were the classic SFX
defined by the studio.
Steve Carras
2004-04-14 03:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
Post by Derek Janssen
Post by BugBarbecue
Weren't every Saturday morning cartoon from the 60's and early 70's from the
HB studios? It sure seemed like it.
Depends which network--
ABC had the Superfriends and post-Scooby HB teens, CBS had the Filmation
live-actions, and NBC was the House the (DePatie-Freleng) Pink Panther
Built.
(Except for the occasional Rankin-Bass, but that's going TOO far back)
Derek Janssen
Not quite. Hanna-Barbera really only became dominant in the Saturday
AM arena around 1966, when the whole concept of cartoons made
especially for a network's Saturday AM lineup was still in its
infancy. Prior to '66, shows made for Saturday AM were made largely by
Total/Leonardo (UNDERDOG, TENNESSEE TUXEDO), Ward (HIPPETY HOOPER) and
With a then-current excepion, a major one---LINUS THE LION HEARTED (Ed
Graham Productions,1964-69, ABC/CBS-the cereal identitication might
have kept it off except under say, 30, who rememebrs ANY character
from LINUS THE LIONHEARTED save for SUGAR BEAR?? Some other things
like the lovable little Chinese kid So-Hi would of course have kept
the show off, with African Americans already by that time being less
and less "caricatured" in new productions)
Post by Howard Fein
KFS (THE BEATLES).
H-B had its first pure Saturday AM series in 1965
Post by Howard Fein
on NBC: The ATOM ANT/SECRET SQUIRREL franchise, which was pretty
indistinguishable from all the 'three unrelated shorts starring a
different funny humanized animal' series it had made for syndication
the previous seven years.
It was the huge success of SPACE GHOST in 1966 that made H-B a major
Saturday AM player, leading to a huge raft of similar superadventure
cartoons. But as early as '66, Saturday AM cartoons were also produced
by DFE (SUPER SIX), Filmation (numerous DC superheroes), KFS (COOL
McCOOL), Rankin-Bass (KING KONG) and Format (LONE RANGER). In fall
1969, two toy-based cartoons, HOT WHEELS and SKYHAWKS were put out by
outfits so obscure I don't even remember their names.
Both by Pantomime Pictures (think Ken ROGER RAMKET Snyder).
QUITE different from his Jay Ward-like ROGER RAMJET starring Gary
(pre-LAUGH IN) Owens back in 1965. Interestingly...hardly ANY shows
seemed to come from Mr.Snyder,whose RAMJET series was actually
created,prodcued and dircted by UPA veteran Fred Crippen (who worked
at UPA with the Jay Ward crew!!). Then ONLY RR had that look. So did
of course, all of the TOTAL TV franchises and the Format ALVIN
show...imagine if ALL of them had been blocked togther like the Ward
and TTV shows were (because of shared sponsors--heck, they even had
the same animation co.-Gamma Productions/Mexico).
Post by Howard Fein
It's only
because of lapsed or tangled ownership issues that we don't see any of
these shows rerun in syndication or on cable- whereas Worldvision and
later Ted Turner laid claim to most of the H-B inventory.
H-B, Filmation and DFE dominated network animation in the seventies-
and for that matter, ALL TV animation. (First-run syndicated cartoons
pretty much ceased to be produced from about 1967 through 1983.) As
Derek noted, Rankin-Bass continued to be a force through 1973 with new
episodes of THE JACKSON 5IVE, OSMONDS, KID POWER and several busted
pilots on ABC'S SATURDAY SUPERSTAR MOVIE. Farmhouse Films made the
successful EMERGENCY+4 series; Air International Programs (AIP) the
single-season AROUND THE WORLD IN 80 DAYS.
As far as network/studio relationships, all three networks carried
much H-B product through the seventies, probably the heaviest on CBS.
The entire CBS 1972-73 lineup was from that studio.
Filmation shows are most associated with CBS (with its most successful
properties, ARCHIE, FAT ALBERT and TARZAN having aired on that
network), but ABC began making inroads as early as 1967 (JOURNEY TO
THE CENTER OF THE EARTH). NBC's first Filmation series wasn't until
1973's STAR TREK.
DFE was heavily associated with NBC (Numerous Panther permutations,
HERE COMES THE GRUMP, DOCTOR DOOLITTLE, BARKLEYS, HOUNDCATS, PLANET OF
THE APES), with token series on ABC (ODDBALL COUPLE) and CBS (BAILEY'S
COMETS).
R-B was almost exclusive to ABC (SMOKEY THE BEAR, RELUCTANT DRAGON,
those mentioned in the paragraph above) with TOMFOOLERY on NBC.
Likewise Ruby-Spears (1978-1988 or thereabouts) on said network.
Post by Howard Fein
By 1975, more and more of Saturday AM was devoted to live-action
series from Filmation, Krofft and the erstwhile D'Angelo-Bullock. So
it seems like the Big Three animation houses took a powder until 1978,
when the network suits took a look at the ratings and commissioned
more cartoons. That's when Ruby-Spears, an H-B offshoot in animation
style that later became co-owned with its parent studio, began.
For the first few years, all R-S product (FANGFACE, PLASTIC MAN,
HEATHCLIFF, THUNDARR, MORK & MINDY) aired on ABC. In 1983, it branched
out to the other three networks with abandon. R-S' debatably most
successful series, ALVIN & THE CHIPMUNKS and MISTER T, continued the
NBC ratings dominance began by THE SMURFS.
DIC, Marvel, Nelvana, Film Roman, TMS, Silver Star- with Nelvana
dominating on ABC and Roman on CBS. DIC was EVERYWHERE (all three
networks, syndie) from 1984 on, and became powerful enough to comprise
NBC's entire fall 1989 lineup. This diversity was made necessary by
the virtual demise of Filmation (whose last series on Saturday AM was
1982's GILLIGAN'S PLANET, syndie 1986's GHOST BUSTERS) and dissolution
of DFE into Marvel.
H-B pressed on through the eighties, but by the nineties one got the
distinct impression it was on its last legs- at least as we knew it.
Such late entries as BILL & TED'S ADVENTURES, GRAVEDALE HIGH, YOUNG
ROBIN HOOD and the cult faves SWAT KATS and PIRATES OF DARK WATER were
barely recognizable as H-B series. The animation quality had improved
somewhat, but the energy was largely gone, as were the classic SFX
defined by the studio.
I miss those..like the Capitol/.Association cues, those SFX included
too many that seemed long gone by the early to mid 1980s, including
some mentioend here often--BONG!!! (for impacts and whatnot..), a
guiter-plucked-vibrating sound that we all know SCOOBY (quivering in
fright) and JOSIE (Melody's ears a-wriggglin' to detect D-A-N-G_E-R),
a steadily gliding guitar sound/pinao being thumped/glass-diamong
polishing sound (there WERE three compents to that one),and others
mainly taken from H.G.Saperstein-era TV and theatrical UPA
products..and of coruse except the YOGI and FLINSTONES (Spumco and
Genndy Tarvtovsky(sp?)) reivivals, and the 1988 Yogi one by HB itself,
classic HB music had largely disappeared since 1972-73, with ROMAN
HOLIDAYS and some of the SCOOBYS being along the last. (Didn't
watch,say,SEALAB 2020 which was concurrent with RH to knwo otherwise
and it was an adventure show and the "comedy" cues tend to strike a
note with me much more..)
Howard Fein
2004-04-14 16:35:54 UTC
Permalink
***@aol.com (Steve Carras) wrote in message

In fall 1969, two toy-based cartoons, HOT WHEELS and SKYHAWKS were put
out by
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Howard Fein
outfits so obscure I don't even remember their names.
Both by Pantomime Pictures (think Ken ROGER RAMKET Snyder).
QUITE different from his Jay Ward-like ROGER RAMJET starring Gary
(pre-LAUGH IN) Owens back in 1965. Interestingly...hardly ANY shows
seemed to come from Mr.Snyder,whose RAMJET series was actually
created,prodcued and dircted by UPA veteran Fred Crippen (who worked
at UPA with the Jay Ward crew!!). Then ONLY RR had that look. So did
of course, all of the TOTAL TV franchises and the Format ALVIN
show...imagine if ALL of them had been blocked togther like the Ward
and TTV shows were (because of shared sponsors--heck, they even had
the same animation co.-Gamma Productions/Mexico).
Thanks, I'd forgotten about Pantomime Pictures. Cartoon Network did
briefly rerun RAMJET a few years ago, and its production values
couldn't have been more different than how I remember HOT WHEELS and
SKYHAWKS- which seemed to have resembled anime. The intervening 33
years and neither series ever having been rerun clouds the memory.

RAMJET seemed almost like a Jay Ward series with its extremely campy
writing (Gary Owens matches Paul Frees and William Conrad in
uber-pretentiousness) and minimalist- cartoon haters would call it
cheap- production values. Viewed as an adult, it's every bit as
hilarious as any Ward show- and refreshingly lacking the fourth-wall
breaking that often bogged them down. The flashing of comic book-style
SFX during fight scenes actually predates their use on the prime-time
BATMAN by a half-season.

Speaking of Ward, he had his last TV hurrah with GEORGE OF THE JUNGLE
on ABC in 1967. Reportedly hated by the network suits (but not so much
that the same 16 episodes didn't rerun for two subsequent seasons),
GEORGE never seemed to repeat in syndication. Fox and ABC did briefly
revive it for a few weeks in 1992 and 1995 respectively- the latter
without the Tom Slick segments.

The other major late-sixties series I had neglected to mention earlier
was Grant-Ray's SPIDERMAN, which supposedly had an equal number of new
episodes in fall 1967 and '68. Viewing a rerun recently on ABC Family,
I found the stilted animation (from Canada, supposedly), heavily
somber tone, and misplaced use of H-B SFX hysterical. The level of
involvement Ralph Bakshi allegedly took in this series is hotly
debated.
Steve Carras
2004-04-13 00:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by BugBarbecue
Weren't every Saturday morning cartoon from the 60's and early 70's from the
HB studios? It sure seemed like it.
Yeah,since most of the mot prominent STUDIOS ued that style: DePatie
Freleng, and sometimes Filmation (though their in-house drawing style
was DEFINITELY much more rougher than Hanna-Barbera, who would NEVER
use stock poses for their rock bands...).

Rankin/Bass though, had several MAD Magazine artist veterans (Mort
Drucker, Jack Davis and ESPECIALLY Paul Coker Jr.) doing charcater
designs going all the way back to the early SIXTIES when the operation
(based in NEw York as has always been MAD, thus explaining a little
logistic availabiloity here) started...see Rick G9oldschmidt THE
ENCHANTED WORLD OF RB.


Even the Warner Bros.cartoons of the late 1960s (esp.Cool Cat and
Merlin the Magic Mouse, which were original to these later toons)
resembled andsounded like Hanna-Barber segments, esecpailly Cool Cat
with his "Shaggy/Joise" like "groovy" talk (though Larry Storch's many
distinctive voices were NOT what HB used..)
Howard Fein
2004-04-14 17:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
Yeah,since most of the mot prominent STUDIOS ued that style: DePatie
Freleng, and sometimes Filmation (though their in-house drawing style
was DEFINITELY much more rougher than Hanna-Barbera, who would NEVER
use stock poses for their rock bands...).
Not quite. The Cattanooga Cats and Bedrock Rockers (the PEBBLES &
BAMM-BAMM gang afforded the Archie treatment) had many, many stock
poses during their music 'videos'. It might not have been as blatant
as with the Archies, Brady Kids (whose movements whether singing or
not are directly traced from the former) or Fat Albert's Junkyard
Band, but you start to notice it- along with the fact that none of the
Cats' string instruments have strings.

Josie's Cats were seldom seen playing on screen for more than a few
seconds as an expository scene establishing that episode's locale.
Their songs in their entireties were played under the climactic chase
sequences.

KFS' BEATLES made the (unintentionally) funniest use of stock poses
while performing. The England crew, who made half the first season
(shared with studios in Australia, Canada and Holland) and all the
second and third season episodes, fashioned a 'bible' of moves for
each of the Fab Four which they would use interchangably during any
scene of them singing. It was interesting to see when they would break
from a stock shot of George getting 'funky' (he would appear to have a
horrible overbite at that point) or John's half-eyes-closed side view
to 'original' footage specific to that episode- and back to stock
poses again.
Post by Steve Carras
Rankin/Bass though, had several MAD Magazine artist veterans (Mort
Drucker, Jack Davis and ESPECIALLY Paul Coker Jr.) doing charcater
designs going all the way back to the early SIXTIES when the operation
(based in NEw York as has always been MAD, thus explaining a little
logistic availabiloity here) started...see Rick G9oldschmidt THE
ENCHANTED WORLD OF RB.
I've seen Paul Coker Jr. credited at the end of many R-B seasonal
specials, both cel-animated and marionette. His designs, familiar from
MAD, are very evident in FROSTY THE SNOWMAN and T'WAS THE NIGHT BEFORE
CHRISTMAS. By and large, it's hard to tell who designed the puppets in
the 3-D specials. Now that you mention the presence of fellow idiots
Mort Drucker and Jack Davis, it appears as if one or the other
designed the 'host' caracetures of RUDOLPH (Burl Ives), SANTA CLAUS IS
COMING TO TOWN (Fred Astaire), RUDOLPH'S SHINY NEW YEAR (Red Skelton)
and THE YEAR WITHOUT A SANTA CLAUS (Shirley Booth).

R-B farmed out its animation to other countries well before other
studios. RELUCTANT DRAGON, JACKSON 5IVE, OSMONDS, KID POWER and the
cel-animated holiday specials were reportedly made in Japan- if so,
they followed Coker's designs very well. SMOKEY THE BEAR, if I
remember, had a very murky, almost anime look. The later cult favorite
THUNDERCATS had a similar look. R-B also pioneered the use of Canadian
voice talent- which was no doubt cheaper. While superhardworking Paul
Frees was a fixture in many shows and holiday specials, others had
unfamiliar names (Jackson Weaver? Carl Banas? Len Soles?), especially
its many (made in the seventies) syndicated adapations of famous
literary works. By the eighties DIC, Nelvana and Marvel were routinely
using Canadian voice talent.
Post by Steve Carras
Even the Warner Bros.cartoons of the late 1960s (esp.Cool Cat and
Merlin the Magic Mouse, which were original to these later toons)
resembled andsounded like Hanna-Barber segments, esecpailly Cool Cat
with his "Shaggy/Joise" like "groovy" talk (though Larry Storch's many
distinctive voices were NOT what HB used..)
Merlin and Second Banana are designed strikingly similarly to H-B
rodents Pixie and Dixie. It was yet another element of the
'Hanna-Barberization' of the studio once Bill Hendricks took over as
producer. The presence of longtime H-B Alex Lovy as director bolstered
this- I'd assumed that when he came over the WB7Arts, he 'brought' the
H-B SFX with him.

Many people incorrectly blame Hendricks and Lovy for "making Daffy run
like Fred Flintstone". You know, the standard winding-up of feet to a
muted bongo drum before the dashing-off richochet. Truth be told,
cartoon characters had been winding up in preparation to run for years
before that. In Freleng's 1943 classic LITTLE RED RIDING RABBIT, both
Bugs and the Wolf do a little 'trombone gobble' with their feet before
taking flight.

This, of course, does not blunt the incompatibility of H-B SFX heard
in a short starring Daffy Duck and Speedy Gonzalez. Since Cool Cat and
Merlin were born the same time as the Hendricks/Lovy takeover, H-B SFX
seem much more natural. One can only imagine how strange the cartoons
would sound if WB commissioned new shorts starring Bugs, Porky,
Sylvester, Tweety or Foghorn under the 7A banner- not to mention how
cheap they would look.
Steve Carras
2004-04-15 03:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
Post by Steve Carras
Yeah,since most of the mot prominent STUDIOS ued that style: DePatie
Freleng, and sometimes Filmation (though their in-house drawing style
was DEFINITELY much more rougher than Hanna-Barbera, who would NEVER
use stock poses for their rock bands...).
Not quite. The Cattanooga Cats and Bedrock Rockers (the PEBBLES &
BAMM-BAMM gang afforded the Archie treatment) had many, many stock
poses during their music 'videos'. It might not have been as blatant
as with the Archies, Brady Kids (whose movements whether singing or
not are directly traced from the former) or Fat Albert's Junkyard
Band, but you start to notice it- along with the fact that none of the
Cats' string instruments have strings.
Josie's Cats were seldom seen playing on screen for more than a few
seconds as an expository scene establishing that episode's locale.
Their songs in their entireties were played under the climactic chase
sequences.
KFS' BEATLES made the (unintentionally) funniest use of stock poses
while performing. The England crew, who made half the first season
(shared with studios in Australia, Canada and Holland) and all the
second and third season episodes, fashioned a 'bible' of moves for
each of the Fab Four which they would use interchangably during any
scene of them singing. It was interesting to see when they would break
from a stock shot of George getting 'funky' (he would appear to have a
horrible overbite at that point) or John's half-eyes-closed side view
to 'original' footage specific to that episode- and back to stock
poses again.
Post by Steve Carras
Rankin/Bass though, had several MAD Magazine artist veterans (Mort
Drucker, Jack Davis and ESPECIALLY Paul Coker Jr.) doing charcater
designs going all the way back to the early SIXTIES when the operation
(based in NEw York as has always been MAD, thus explaining a little
logistic availabiloity here) started...see Rick G9oldschmidt THE
ENCHANTED WORLD OF RB.
I've seen Paul Coker Jr. credited at the end of many R-B seasonal
specials, both cel-animated and marionette. His designs, familiar from
MAD, are very evident in FROSTY THE SNOWMAN and T'WAS THE NIGHT BEFORE
CHRISTMAS. By and large, it's hard to tell who designed the puppets in
the 3-D specials. Now that you mention the presence of fellow idiots
Mort Drucker and Jack Davis, it appears as if one or the other
designed the 'host' caracetures of RUDOLPH (Burl Ives), SANTA CLAUS IS
COMING TO TOWN (Fred Astaire), RUDOLPH'S SHINY NEW YEAR (Red Skelton)
and THE YEAR WITHOUT A SANTA CLAUS (Shirley Booth).
R-B farmed out its animation to other countries well before other
studios. RELUCTANT DRAGON, JACKSON 5IVE, OSMONDS, KID POWER and the
cel-animated holiday specials were reportedly made in Japan- if so,
they followed Coker's designs very well. SMOKEY THE BEAR, if I
remember, had a very murky, almost anime look. The later cult favorite
THUNDERCATS had a similar look. R-B also pioneered the use of Canadian
voice talent- which was no doubt cheaper. While superhardworking Paul
Frees was a fixture in many shows and holiday specials, others had
unfamiliar names (Jackson Weaver? Carl Banas? Len Soles?), especially
its many (made in the seventies) syndicated adapations of famous
literary works. By the eighties DIC, Nelvana and Marvel were routinely
using Canadian voice talent.
Post by Steve Carras
Even the Warner Bros.cartoons of the late 1960s (esp.Cool Cat and
Merlin the Magic Mouse, which were original to these later toons)
resembled andsounded like Hanna-Barber segments, esecpailly Cool Cat
with his "Shaggy/Joise" like "groovy" talk (though Larry Storch's many
distinctive voices were NOT what HB used..)
Merlin and Second Banana are designed strikingly similarly to H-B
rodents Pixie and Dixie. It was yet another element of the
'Hanna-Barberization' of the studio once Bill Hendricks took over as
producer. The presence of longtime H-B Alex Lovy as director bolstered
this- I'd assumed that when he came over the WB7Arts, he 'brought' the
H-B SFX with him.
Many people incorrectly blame Hendricks and Lovy for "making Daffy run
like Fred Flintstone". You know, the standard winding-up of feet to a
muted bongo drum before the dashing-off richochet. Truth be told,
cartoon characters had been winding up in preparation to run for years
before that. In Freleng's 1943 classic LITTLE RED RIDING RABBIT, both
Bugs and the Wolf do a little 'trombone gobble' with their feet before
taking flight.
This, of course, does not blunt the incompatibility of H-B SFX heard
in a short starring Daffy Duck and Speedy Gonzalez. Since Cool Cat and
Merlin were born the same time as the Hendricks/Lovy takeover, H-B SFX
seem much more natural. One can only imagine how strange the cartoons
would sound if WB commissioned new shorts starring Bugs, Porky,
Sylvester, Tweety or Foghorn under the 7A banner- not to mention how
cheap they would look.
All that would be needed would be at least have an offscreen
bubble-pop group doing Kasenetz-Katz, Boyce-hart or Pockriss-Vance
tunes for instance a la Archie or Mike CUrb/Andy Kim stuff, and
underrated Hanna-Barbera "teenage" voice actress Janet (MEET CORLISS
ARCHER) Waldo as Honey Bunny (no Lola back then,etc.), and a cowardly
Casey Kasem bunny (and two niece-nephew types for HB, with Pam Ferdin
and Johnnie Whittaker voices!).

(Or the Roadrunnwer family from the Dell comics could have their own
rock band a al the Cowsills and the Partridges, mom and pop
included..!)
Howard Fein
2004-04-13 19:56:24 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com (Arty McToon) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...
Of course, Warner Bros. Animation had shut down in the late 1960s
Post by Arty McToon
(their animation shorts in their last years of operation had a
Hanna-Barbera look to them) and wasn't resurrected until the late
1970s for tv specials. H-B was actually tops in the tv animation game
in the late 1960s and 70s (with Filmation close behind) after WB's
demise since many more people were watching television than going to
the movies at the time.
With the possible exception of what little product Disney was making
in the second half of the sixties, ALL American animation was by and
large 'cheap'. The theatrical cartoons released by WB, DFE and Lantz
were indistinguishable in budget and quality from TV animation
produced by Hanna-Barbera. (Notice I didn't bring up KFS, Ward or
Filmation, most of whose product made in the late sixties made H-B
look positively expensive.)

This isn't meant to be a slam on H-B, whose budget seemed to have
dramatically increased in 1968. The superadventure shows of the
previous two seasons actually differed little in appearance to the
'funny animal' shorts the studio had been making for eight years
before that. But WACKY RACES, GULLIVER, CATTANOOGA CATS, PENELOPE
PITSTOP, DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY, WHERE'S HUDDLES and HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS
had dynamic designs and very colorful, fine-lined backgrounds (in
fitting with the times) that almost had a 3-D look at times. The first
two seasons of SCOOBY-DOO had a very effective 'dark' look that
reflected the mileus required of story.

This, of course, did not mean the end of cutting corners or technical
blunders. You still saw Autocat driving past the same building and
park endless times in one shot. The same spectators were seen cheering
in the sideline in every HUDDLES and 'TROTTER episode. Daphne could
still speak in Velma's voice.

Subsequent H-B series made in the seventies reverted to a more
conventional low-budget look, noticeably in JOSIE, HAIR BEAR BUNCH,
SEALAB 2020 and others. The farming out of work overseas was very
evident in shows that looked and sounded strange (FUNKY PHANTOM) or
were yet more stilted (AMAZING CHAN CLAN).
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
6.Janet Waldo, Alan Reed,ec.were just Saturday AM voice actors with no
radio expierece.Even Daws Butler and Don Messick (who DID work in
theatricals,just unbilled for the most part before the sixties, that's
all) get this.(In realtiy, though little if at all heard prioir to HB,
the above, and Penny "Blondie" (after all!) Singleton,etc. hd VAST
expierence on radio).
One misconception that keeps cropping up goes along the lines of "Daws
Butler worked ONLY for Hanna-Barbera." After many years in radio,
Butler started voicing for cartoons as far back as 1950 (MGM's
Avery-directed PEACHY COBBLER is reportedly is his first such role,
and his voicing of the deliberately maudlin narrator and elderly
Teutonic shoemaker show that he already knew his onions.) Long before
H-B opened in 1957, Butler was frequently heard in MGM, WB and Lantz
cartoons. Even after he made his name as Yogi Bear and Huck Hound,
Butler continued to toil for Lantz, Jay Ward and DFE well into the
seventies.

Also contrary to popular belief, Daws Butler was not the primary voice
in EVERY H-B cartoon. OK, he was the lead character in most series of
shorts made through 1962. But his appearances in THE FLINTSTONES were
relatively scant- maybe 20 episodes over six seasons. He was much more
of a force in THE JETSONS, being the regular voice of Elroy and hence
many recurring (Cogswell) and incidental characters on top of that. He
guested in only one TOP CAT episode as far as I know, was a regular in
the GORILLA/POTAMUS franchise, and (puzzlingly) TWO of the 156 shorts
made for the ANT/SQUIRREL franchise: one Precious Pupp and one
Hillbilly Bears.

It makes sense, given Butler's continued work in other studios, that
he wouldn't do EVERY H-B series. But he was still a durable presence
at the studio until his sudden 1988 demise.
Post by Arty McToon
Peggy Charren's ACT work started in the early 1970s. TV Networks
faced pressure around the assassination of President John F. Kennedy
to tone down violence in all tv program. The assassinations of Martin
Luther King Jr and Robert F. Kennedy in 1968 plus the carnage of the
Vietnam War on the evening news added fuel to making kids tv
educational and less violent. H-B's action shows were cancelled
("Space Ghost", "Herculoids", "Birdman") and comedy cartoons were the
norm ("Wacky Races", "Scooby Doo").
While slapstick cartoon violence was toned down after the 1969 season,
TV cartoons didn't exactly become like Itchy & Scratchy's PORCH PALS.
Pratfalls, indignities and 'seeing stars' abounded throughout the
comedic series made in the seventies: Alexandra switching around the
wires to make Josie sound bad and getting zapped; the Chopper Bunch
falling out windows and off cliffs; Undercover (C.B. BEARS) Elephant
falling victim to the 'self-destructing message'; Hong Kong Phooey's
martial arts causing a shack to collapse on himself. Cartoons from the
other studios were little different.
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
8.There's no sex appeal,esp.in the 1970s ones (obviously either from
straight guys who NEVER saw BUTCH CASSIDY-not the 1969 classic 20th
Century-Fox flick with Paul Newman (before his, uh salad days) and
Robert Redford but the teen rock group 1973 one), JOSIE, or
SCOOBY--I'm a Velma guy myself).
Zandor and Tara on the "Herculoids" were the cool couple.
Aside from Daphne and Melody, who EVERY guy loved, I was partial to
Jenny Trent (The AROUND THE WORLD IN 79 DAYS segments of CATTANOOGA
CATS), Jeannie, Debbie of SPEED BUGGY, Steffy of BUTCH CASSIDY and
Lori of INCH HIGH PRIVATE HIGH. Somehow, none of the Teen Angels
especially appealed to me.
Post by Arty McToon
In the 70s, most H-B shows featured teens solving mysteries and
singing groovy songs. "Archie" was the "bomb" back then.
There were still funny talking animals, or in the case of SPEED BUGGY
and WHEELIE AND THE CHOPPER BUNCH, funny talking vehicles. Take HAIR
BEAR BUNCH, YOGI'S GANG (OK, they pretty much ceased being funny in
that show), HONG KONG PHOOEY (though the title character is the only
animal and he makes no acknowledgement of his canine state), TOM &
JERRY (they were mandated to be mute, but all incidental animal
characters talked) GRAPE APE, JABBERJAW, C.B. BEARS, GALAXY GOOF-UPS.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2004-04-13 21:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
This, of course, did not mean the end of cutting corners or technical
blunders. You still saw Autocat driving past the same building and
park endless times in one shot....
I'm not sure the budget and background thing. In several of the fully
animated Fleischer Popeyes, the backgrounds repeat. I think it may be
a case of using the budget where it really counts.


Ted
Mark Evanier
2004-04-14 02:39:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
One misconception that keeps cropping up goes along the lines of "Daws
Butler worked ONLY for Hanna-Barbera." After many years in radio,
Butler started voicing for cartoons as far back as 1950 (MGM's
Avery-directed PEACHY COBBLER is reportedly is his first such role,
and his voicing of the deliberately maudlin narrator and elderly
Teutonic shoemaker show that he already knew his onions.)
ME: Daws identified LITTLE RURAL RIDING HOOD (1949) as the first
cartoon he recorded. He played the City Wolf.

He seems to be in one or two cartoons released before that one but
those lines may have been recorded after he did LITTLE RURAL RIDING
HOOD.
----------------------------------------------------
www.newsfromme.com (Mark Evanier's daily weblog)
www.POVonline.com (Mark Evanier's not-daily website)
Howard Fein
2004-04-14 17:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Evanier
Post by Howard Fein
One misconception that keeps cropping up goes along the lines of "Daws
Butler worked ONLY for Hanna-Barbera." After many years in radio,
Butler started voicing for cartoons as far back as 1950 (MGM's
Avery-directed PEACHY COBBLER is reportedly is his first such role,
and his voicing of the deliberately maudlin narrator and elderly
Teutonic shoemaker show that he already knew his onions.)
ME: Daws identified LITTLE RURAL RIDING HOOD (1949) as the first
cartoon he recorded. He played the City Wolf.
He seems to be in one or two cartoons released before that one but
those lines may have been recorded after he did LITTLE RURAL RIDING
HOOD.
Oops! You're right. RURAL RIDING HOOD has an MCMXLIX copyright. PEACHY
COBBLER and DROOPY'S DOUBLE TROUBLE, also with Butler, were copyright
MCML. As you stated, theatrical cartoons are not necessarily released
in the order in which they were made.

Either way, Butler didn't really become an MGM regular until the
Cinemascope days. That's when he hit it big with his trademark laconic
'future Huck Hound' voice ("H'llo thar, Billy Boy-boy-boy-boy-";
"MEOW! MEOW! MEOW, man!"). Once Quimby left, he pretty much assumed
Spike's voice (the Tom & Jerry Spike, not the Droopy Spike) as a
Jackie Gleason imitation. Prior to that, Spike had been usually played
by Billy Bletcher.

I believe- and stop me if I'm wrong- that Butler's first Lantz
appearance was 1954's Woodpecker short CONVICT CONCERTO (also reputed
to be storyman's Hugh Harman's last on-screen credit). Universal
wouldn't start putting voice credits on Lantz cartoons till the
following year, but when the hiding bank robber says over the phone
"This woodpecker's piano playing is driving me NUTS!" it's very
obviously Butler.

It seems Butler's first WB appearance is in 1955's HEIR CONDITIONING,
one of the first shorts released after the studio's reopening
(director credit to Friz instead of I. Freleng), and the middle of the
campy Sloan Fund 'edutainment' trilogy. Daws does several
miscellaneous alley cats (one in his Wolf/Smedley/Huck voice). He
appears in a surprisingly large number of consecutively-released WB
shorts from all three directors through 1956 and '57, but usually in
incidental roles. Butler proved such a specialist at imitating Gleason
and Carney (in HALF FARE HARE and WIDEO WABBIT) that an aborted series
of shorts parodying the Honeymooners (as mice) was made by McKimson.
And as any cartoon buff knows, his Carney imitation became Yogi Bear.

The haphazard release of the original ROCKY SHOW makes it difficult to
ascertain when Daws stepped in. As far as the R&B franchise, he was
only used in the Fractured Fairy Tales and Aesop & Son segments- which
look somewhat newer than the original R&B and Peabody cartoons.
Mark Evanier
2004-04-14 19:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
I believe- and stop me if I'm wrong- that Butler's first Lantz
appearance was 1954's Woodpecker short CONVICT CONCERTO (also reputed
to be storyman's Hugh Harman's last on-screen credit).
ME: I think that's correct.
Post by Howard Fein
It seems Butler's first WB appearance is in 1955's HEIR CONDITIONING,
one of the first shorts released after the studio's reopening
(director credit to Friz instead of I. Freleng), and the middle of the
campy Sloan Fund 'edutainment' trilogy.
ME: Daws was in the 1952 WB cartoon, "Gift Wrapped." And I think
there were at least a few others before "Heir Conditioning" but I'm
not near my lists at the moment.
Post by Howard Fein
He appears in a surprisingly large number of consecutively-released WB
shorts from all three directors through 1956 and '57, but usually in
incidental roles. Butler proved such a specialist at imitating Gleason
and Carney (in HALF FARE HARE and WIDEO WABBIT) that an aborted series
of shorts parodying the Honeymooners (as mice) was made by McKimson.
And as any cartoon buff knows, his Carney imitation became Yogi Bear.
ME: As I understand it, during that period, Mel was making one of his
more serious bids for a higher salary. He would often say, "Hey, I'm
playing nine parts in some of these films" and to counter that, WB
execs told the directors to cut down on the number of incidental
characters Mel voiced. Since Freberg was getting busy with his
recording career, Daws was the natural pick. Those "Honeymousers"
cartoons may even have been a conscious attempt to launch a series
where Mel didn't do the leads. (I think he's in one of them, just
making cat sounds. And he got screen credit, whereas Daws and June
Foray did not.)

I always thought it was interesting that the Yogi voice, while derived
from Art Carney, wasn't really Art Carney. Daws used to demonstrate
the difference, doing his Carney imitation and then doing Yogi, and
the difference was quite striking. In the same way, Snagglepuss
didn't sound as much like Bert Lahr as some people thought, Hokey Wolf
wasn't as close to Phil Silvers, etc.
Post by Howard Fein
The haphazard release of the original ROCKY SHOW makes it difficult to
ascertain when Daws stepped in. As far as the R&B franchise, he was
only used in the Fractured Fairy Tales and Aesop & Son segments- which
look somewhat newer than the original R&B and Peabody cartoons.
ME: The first Fractured Fairy Tales were made at the same time as the
first Rocky cartoons, so Daws was a part of the Ward stable from the
start. Aesop came later.

As you may know, there were several different closings made to ROCKY
AND HIS FRIENDS. Daws got screen credit in one of them...with his
name misspelled, "Dawes." When he became firmly entrenched at
Hanna-Barbera, he asked to have his name omitted from the Jay Ward
cartoons. He said it was because he thought it looked excessive. He
was probably concerned about that, but I think his agent was also
concerned about not reminding H-B that Daws was working for Jay Ward
for scale, while demanding more than that from Hanna-Barbera.
----------------------------------------------------
www.newsfromme.com (Mark Evanier's daily weblog)
www.POVonline.com (Mark Evanier's not-daily website)
Steve Carras
2004-04-15 02:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Evanier
Post by Howard Fein
I believe- and stop me if I'm wrong- that Butler's first Lantz
appearance was 1954's Woodpecker short CONVICT CONCERTO (also reputed
to be storyman's Hugh Harman's last on-screen credit).
ME: I think that's correct.
Post by Howard Fein
It seems Butler's first WB appearance is in 1955's HEIR CONDITIONING,
one of the first shorts released after the studio's reopening
(director credit to Friz instead of I. Freleng), and the middle of the
campy Sloan Fund 'edutainment' trilogy.
ME: Daws was in the 1952 WB cartoon, "Gift Wrapped." And I think
there were at least a few others before "Heir Conditioning" but I'm
not near my lists at the moment.
Post by Howard Fein
He appears in a surprisingly large number of consecutively-released WB
shorts from all three directors through 1956 and '57, but usually in
incidental roles. Butler proved such a specialist at imitating Gleason
and Carney (in HALF FARE HARE and WIDEO WABBIT) that an aborted series
of shorts parodying the Honeymooners (as mice) was made by McKimson.
And as any cartoon buff knows, his Carney imitation became Yogi Bear.
ME: As I understand it, during that period, Mel was making one of his
more serious bids for a higher salary. He would often say, "Hey, I'm
playing nine parts in some of these films" and to counter that, WB
execs told the directors to cut down on the number of incidental
characters Mel voiced. Since Freberg was getting busy with his
recording career, Daws was the natural pick. Those "Honeymousers"
cartoons may even have been a conscious attempt to launch a series
where Mel didn't do the leads. (I think he's in one of them, just
making cat sounds. And he got screen credit, whereas Daws and June
Foray did not.)
Mark, I don't EVER recall eharing Blanc in there (June Foray did the
cat meowing and Daws did the cat in 1957's mid-entry of the trilogy:
CHEESE IT THE CAT, when he says "No CASULTIES he says" in respone to
his own Ed Norton's "No casualties Ralph" after the mice throw the
explosive cake out.Or maybe Mel did that, either way, that's the only
time if at all that Blanc did a HONEYMOUSERS part.) and NO voice
credit exists on ANY of these. Graham Webb ID's Merrie Virginia, who's
actually given the index, the one and only Ginny Tyler (SPACE GHOST,
DFE's FATNASTIC FOUR which you and I know eschewed the Torch because
of a Unviersal deal going on with the character, and GUMBY for a
while, as wlel a smany for Disney), in MICE FOLLIES. But June's
there,too, at least as the cat. And Daws."Good Night Morton" (And of
course the first of those was the 1956 nHONEYMOUSERS).
Howard Fein
2004-04-15 17:02:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Mark Evanier
Post by Howard Fein
It seems Butler's first WB appearance is in 1955's HEIR CONDITIONING,
one of the first shorts released after the studio's reopening
(director credit to Friz instead of I. Freleng), and the middle of the
campy Sloan Fund 'edutainment' trilogy.
ME: Daws was in the 1952 WB cartoon, "Gift Wrapped." And I think
there were at least a few others before "Heir Conditioning" but I'm
not near my lists at the moment.
HF: Now that you mention it, that IS Daws' distinctive bass
intonations reciting the first few lines of "T'was The Night Before
Christmas", made funnier by Sylvester's disgusted interruption: "You
ain't jutht whithling DIXIE, brother!" Somehow I never considered that
was Butler voicing for WB at such an early point in time, since he
didn't really become a semi-regular for another two years.
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Mark Evanier
Post by Howard Fein
He appears in a surprisingly large number of consecutively-released WB
shorts from all three directors through 1956 and '57, but usually in
incidental roles. Butler proved such a specialist at imitating Gleason
and Carney (in HALF FARE HARE and WIDEO WABBIT) that an aborted series
of shorts parodying the Honeymooners (as mice) was made by McKimson.
And as any cartoon buff knows, his Carney imitation became Yogi Bear.
ME: As I understand it, during that period, Mel was making one of his
more serious bids for a higher salary. He would often say, "Hey, I'm
playing nine parts in some of these films" and to counter that, WB
execs told the directors to cut down on the number of incidental
characters Mel voiced. Since Freberg was getting busy with his
recording career, Daws was the natural pick. Those "Honeymousers"
cartoons may even have been a conscious attempt to launch a series
where Mel didn't do the leads. (I think he's in one of them, just
making cat sounds. And he got screen credit, whereas Daws and June
Foray did not.)
HF: So THAT's why Butler provided so many incidentals in such films as
STUPOR DUCK, WIDEO WABBIT and YANKEE DOOD IT, and prominent guest
roles in BARBARY COAST BUNNY (the return of Nasty Canasta) and RAW!
RAW! ROOSTER- all of which were released in 1956.

Likewise, Daws was most of the supporting male voices in BOYHOOD DAZE,
whose nominal star was voiced by Dick Beals. Aside from the
Honey-Mouser trilogy, Butler was the male lead in Jones'
ROCKET-BYE-BABY and Freleng's A WAGGILY TALE- the latter in which he
co-stars with Lucille Bliss rather than the expected June Foray.
WAGGILY was Bliss' only WB appearance. She sounded exactly like
Smurfette, who would see the light of cathode ray a mere 23 years
later. And Mel Blanc was not heard in ANY of these cartoons.

While Butler's WB appearances tailed off after 1958, he still
collaborated with Blanc in MUTT IN A RUT, WILD WILD WORLD, the two
Bugs/Daffy TV spoofs PEOPLE ARE BUNNY and PEOPLE TO BUNNY. It seemed
that McKimson was trying to launch a spin-off with two ravenous
southern buzzards who appeared in BACKWOODS BUNNY and A DIXIE FRYER.
Butler voice Elvis in his standard high-pitched Hillbilly mewl and
Pappy in a sort of southern Gleason variation.
Post by Steve Carras
Mark, I don't EVER recall eharing Blanc in there (June Foray did the
CHEESE IT THE CAT, when he says "No CASULTIES he says" in respone to
his own Ed Norton's "No casualties Ralph" after the mice throw the
explosive cake out.Or maybe Mel did that, either way, that's the only
time if at all that Blanc did a HONEYMOUSERS part.) and NO voice
credit exists on ANY of these.
HF: Yes, the cat, who all through CHEESE IT THE CAT was reduced to
Forayed cat gutteral sounds, does speak the tag line ('No casualties',
he says. Hoo-hoo-HOOOO!!") in Blanc's voice. All through the late
forties and fifties, a cartoon without overt dialogue from Blanc (The
Roadrunner series, the Three Bears) was released WITHOUT voice credit.
That includes McKimson's KIDDIN' THE KITTEN starring Sheldon Leonard
as Dodsworth- though Blanc still does the requisite non-talking kitten
sounds and Benadaret as her trademark exasperated off-screen mistress.
Needless to say, Benadaret never received on-screen credit either. No
one but Blanc did until the studio changed hands in mid- 1960
(coincidental with the last shorts released for the post-48 syndicated
package that ran on independent stations from 1966 through '90).

The only exception to the 'only Blanc' credit is THE MOUSE THAT JACK
BUILT, which lists every cast member with loving care, obviously due
to the 'special' nature of the cartoon and the presence of the
legendary Jack Benny.
Mark Evanier
2004-04-15 17:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
HF: Yes, the cat, who all through CHEESE IT THE CAT was reduced to
Forayed cat gutteral sounds, does speak the tag line ('No casualties',
he says. Hoo-hoo-HOOOO!!") in Blanc's voice. All through the late
forties and fifties, a cartoon without overt dialogue from Blanc (The
Roadrunner series, the Three Bears) was released WITHOUT voice credit.
That includes McKimson's KIDDIN' THE KITTEN starring Sheldon Leonard
as Dodsworth- though Blanc still does the requisite non-talking kitten
sounds and Benadaret as her trademark exasperated off-screen mistress.
Needless to say, Benadaret never received on-screen credit either. No
one but Blanc did until the studio changed hands in mid- 1960
(coincidental with the last shorts released for the post-48 syndicated
package that ran on independent stations from 1966 through '90).
The only exception to the 'only Blanc' credit is THE MOUSE THAT JACK
BUILT, which lists every cast member with loving care, obviously due
to the 'special' nature of the cartoon and the presence of the
legendary Jack Benny.
ME: One other exception would be Stan Freberg's credit on THREE LITTLE
BOPS.

One of the little mysteries of all this is to what extent the paucity
of credits for anyone but Blanc was a function of Mel's contract. A
lot of folks, including voice artists who felt slighted, assumed that
Mel had it in his deal that he was the only person who could receive a
voice credit on a WB cartoon. The further presumption is that the
exceptions, like those mentioned above, were cases where Mel agreed.

But as far as I know, the folks making these assumptions never had
access to Mel's contract...they just assumed this.

----------------------------------------------------
www.newsfromme.com (Mark Evanier's daily weblog)
www.POVonline.com (Mark Evanier's not-daily website)
Steve Carras
2004-04-15 23:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Evanier
Post by Howard Fein
HF: Yes, the cat, who all through CHEESE IT THE CAT was reduced to
Forayed cat gutteral sounds, does speak the tag line ('No casualties',
he says. Hoo-hoo-HOOOO!!") in Blanc's voice. All through the late
forties and fifties, a cartoon without overt dialogue from Blanc (The
Roadrunner series, the Three Bears) was released WITHOUT voice credit.
That includes McKimson's KIDDIN' THE KITTEN starring Sheldon Leonard
as Dodsworth- though Blanc still does the requisite non-talking kitten
sounds and Benadaret as her trademark exasperated off-screen mistress.
Needless to say, Benadaret never received on-screen credit either. No
one but Blanc did until the studio changed hands in mid- 1960
(coincidental with the last shorts released for the post-48 syndicated
package that ran on independent stations from 1966 through '90).
The only exception to the 'only Blanc' credit is THE MOUSE THAT JACK
BUILT, which lists every cast member with loving care, obviously due
to the 'special' nature of the cartoon and the presence of the
legendary Jack Benny.
ME: One other exception would be Stan Freberg's credit on THREE LITTLE
BOPS.
Accoridng to Dave Mackey's CompuServe corrrections to the 1989 Jerry
Beck/Will Friedwald book (I used to be Comp as you might recall around
1994-1995 in my early net years:)), Daws Butler BEFORE TLB got screen
credite, alibit for aNON-theatrical toon..Chuck Jones's DRAFTY ISN"T
IT.

If the shorts with more of Blanc's maudio costs (1963's TRANSYLVANIA
6500 with ben Frommer and Jukie Bennett of Cindy Bear fame, from HB's
YOGI) and the Jack Benny short had been in REGULAR 1960-70s off
network rotation, screen credits and titles and all, ALONG with the
THREE LITTLE BOPS cartoon which was, more people would be aware of the
credits as such but most of these, alas, were for syndication.

Mel Blanc's being allowed to work at least for TV outsidr Warners
beigging with the FLINSTONES in 1960 definitely along with producer
Edward Selzer haivng already left by 1960 explains more and more (if
occasional) appearances onscreen of credits for voices by those
besides Blanc.(The second explanation,about Mr.Selzer leaving, qwas
one by Friz Freleng, to Leonard Maltin in the needs-to-be-updated
original 1980 ediiton of OF MICE AND MAGIC, last updated in
1987...just before ROGER RABBIT and the newer cartoon booms shortly
thereafter.
Steve Carras
2004-04-15 23:34:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Mark Evanier
Post by Howard Fein
It seems Butler's first WB appearance is in 1955's HEIR CONDITIONING,
one of the first shorts released after the studio's reopening
(director credit to Friz instead of I. Freleng), and the middle of the
campy Sloan Fund 'edutainment' trilogy.
ME: Daws was in the 1952 WB cartoon, "Gift Wrapped." And I think
there were at least a few others before "Heir Conditioning" but I'm
not near my lists at the moment.
HF: Now that you mention it, that IS Daws' distinctive bass
intonations reciting the first few lines of "T'was The Night Before
Christmas", made funnier by Sylvester's disgusted interruption: "You
ain't jutht whithling DIXIE, brother!" Somehow I never considered that
was Butler voicing for WB at such an early point in time, since he
didn't really become a semi-regular for another two years.
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Mark Evanier
Post by Howard Fein
He appears in a surprisingly large number of consecutively-released WB
shorts from all three directors through 1956 and '57, but usually in
incidental roles. Butler proved such a specialist at imitating Gleason
and Carney (in HALF FARE HARE and WIDEO WABBIT) that an aborted series
of shorts parodying the Honeymooners (as mice) was made by McKimson.
And as any cartoon buff knows, his Carney imitation became Yogi Bear.
ME: As I understand it, during that period, Mel was making one of his
more serious bids for a higher salary. He would often say, "Hey, I'm
playing nine parts in some of these films" and to counter that, WB
execs told the directors to cut down on the number of incidental
characters Mel voiced. Since Freberg was getting busy with his
recording career, Daws was the natural pick. Those "Honeymousers"
cartoons may even have been a conscious attempt to launch a series
where Mel didn't do the leads. (I think he's in one of them, just
making cat sounds. And he got screen credit, whereas Daws and June
Foray did not.)
HF: So THAT's why Butler provided so many incidentals in such films as
STUPOR DUCK, WIDEO WABBIT and YANKEE DOOD IT, and prominent guest
roles in BARBARY COAST BUNNY (the return of Nasty Canasta) and RAW!
RAW! ROOSTER- all of which were released in 1956.
Likewise, Daws was most of the supporting male voices in BOYHOOD DAZE,
whose nominal star was voiced by Dick Beals. Aside from the
Honey-Mouser trilogy, Butler was the male lead in Jones'
ROCKET-BYE-BABY and Freleng's A WAGGILY TALE- the latter in which he
co-stars with Lucille Bliss rather than the expected June Foray.
WAGGILY was Bliss' only WB appearance. She sounded exactly like
Smurfette, who would see the light of cathode ray a mere 23 years
later. And Mel Blanc was not heard in ANY of these cartoons.
Interestingly ,Graham Webb's THE ANIMATED FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA lists the
Sylvester Warner short from 1951, CANNED FUED as having "voices Mel
Blanc,Lucille Bliss"..which I KNOW is so not true..BEa BEnadaret was
in that as the wife, all the way.(Webb's book is very infromative and
has allegedy a LOT more info correctly than JEff Lenburg's similairly
titled THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF.. series, but a lot of mistkaes regarding
voices cropped up..for instance "Walker Edmiston" of Krofft, HB and
Disney fame guesting (of course) as the mad scientist for WATER WATER
EVERY HARE.Most likely it's Dave Barry or eve more so John
T.Smith,both of which wereheard a lot in Wrnr cartoons.Smith's
specality at WB,, of his handfl of voices tht he did there, his gruff,
vaguelky Blanc "Barnyard Daweg"(as in the Foghorn lghron series)
sounding gruff voice, heard in,among others, 1950's HOMELSS AHRE
(construction guy that battles wits with Bugs) and CHOW HOUND (title
character, as in "What! No Gravy!" and the like).
Post by Howard Fein
While Butler's WB appearances tailed off after 1958, he still
collaborated with Blanc in MUTT IN A RUT, WILD WILD WORLD, the two
Bugs/Daffy TV spoofs PEOPLE ARE BUNNY and PEOPLE TO BUNNY. It seemed
that McKimson was trying to launch a spin-off with two ravenous
southern buzzards who appeared in BACKWOODS BUNNY and A DIXIE FRYER.
Butler voice Elvis in his standard high-pitched Hillbilly mewl and
Pappy in a sort of southern Gleason variation.
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Mark Evanier
(Myself,SC,repsonding to ME on Blanc in the HONEYMOUSDERS and the implicationsof crdit there, though that may not was implied-read the quote)
Mark, I don't EVER recall eharing Blanc in there (June Foray did the
CHEESE IT THE CAT, when he says "No CASULTIES he says" in respone to
his own Ed Norton's "No casualties Ralph" after the mice throw the
explosive cake out.Or maybe Mel did that, either way, that's the only
time if at all that Blanc did a HONEYMOUSERS part.) and NO voice
credit exists on ANY of these.
HF: Yes, the cat, who all through CHEESE IT THE CAT was reduced to
Forayed cat gutteral sounds, does speak the tag line ('No casualties',
he says. Hoo-hoo-HOOOO!!") in Blanc's voice.
SC:Dunno.,.sound like either Blanc or Butler, yet one thing IS
vcertain..that was Mel's only spot in that series...therefore no
screen credit..
HF:P
All through the late
Post by Howard Fein
forties and fifties, a cartoon without overt dialogue from Blanc (The
Roadrunner series, the Three Bears) was released WITHOUT voice credit.
That includes McKimson's KIDDIN' THE KITTEN starring Sheldon Leonard
as Dodsworth- though Blanc still does the requisite non-talking kitten
sounds and Benadaret as her trademark exasperated off-screen mistress.
Needless to say, Benadaret never received on-screen credit either. No
one but Blanc did until the studio changed hands in mid- 1960
(coincidental with the last shorts released for the post-48 syndicated
package that ran on independent stations from 1966 through '90).
The only exception to the 'only Blanc' credit is THE MOUSE THAT JACK
BUILT, which lists every cast member with loving care, obviously due
to the 'special' nature of the cartoon and the presence of the
legendary Jack Benny.
As Mark Evanier's alreaby mentioned, THREE LITTLE BOP with the great
Stan FReberg s;pecially listed as "VOCAL" (1957) exists and it was
released BEFORE he BEnny Short.Obviosuly Freberg's finally attaining
star status by then along with the unusual all sung narration ws the
key.In a Freberg article in the unqiue magazine about unique music
(Tower Records sells it),COOL AND STRANGE MUSIC, Freberg admitted that
Friz Freleng had to inist on said scren credit.He also did all of the
other voice,sexcept the females in the crowd:"STOP THAT MUSIC THROW
THE SQUARE OUT".Plus as I point out,bakc in my CompuServe (tm) days, I
went to the various files on info contributd by many experts to
ANIMATIOn file (so long I can;'t exactly recall how I got there), and
Dave Mackey had made, in 1989, a series of corrections to the then new
Beck/Friedwald
LT&<MM paperback. One of those was that the even earlier 1956 Armed
Forces short that obviosuly never saw the light of day in civlian
theatres, DRAFTY ISN"T IT by Jones, credits Daws Butler EXCLSUIVELY.

I wonder if anyone making shorts with Jim Backus at WB like the genie
one, and the others (specifically character actors known for one voice
and becoming famous outside.), and if Edward Everett Horton and others
that didn'; voice for WB had done (in Jim Backu'ss case that would be
well into the fifties),hd insisted on it as Friz did for THREE LITTLE
BOPS that we would've seen something like..

"Voice Chracatterizations..MEL BLANC
HANS CONREIUD"
Such a credit in the early fifties would have been as unqiue as the
existing Eugene Poddany/MIlt Franklyn credit on a few 1951 shorts when
Carl Dtalling was sick.
Steve Carras
2004-04-15 02:55:56 UTC
Permalink
(Regaridng Daws Butler)
Mark Evanier:: (snipped)
Post by Mark Evanier
I always thought it was interesting that the Yogi voice, while derived
from Art Carney, wasn't really Art Carney. Daws used to demonstrate
the difference, doing his Carney imitation and then doing Yogi, and
the difference was quite striking. In the same way, Snagglepuss
didn't sound as much like Bert Lahr as some people thought, Hokey Wolf
wasn't as close to Phil Silvers, etc.
Jerry Mann definitely sound a LOT more like Phil Silvers than either
Arnold Stang (TOP CAT, tohugh it showed a versatile Stang there, or
Butler as anybody (He of course did this voice for many Ward
incidentals,like in GEO.OF THE JUNGLE & FRACTURED FAIRY TALES).

Stan Freberg did a REAL good take on comedian-crooner Frank Fontiane
in Robert McKimson's 1952 Warner cartoon RABBIT'S KIN (and it's our
hero McKimson who brought us the aforementioned HONEYMOUSERS
later).When Daws did that voice for amny characters later,incl.at
Warners the orage cat Sam in the cartoon Howard mentions as his first,
HEIR CONDITIONED, it was a veyr deep variation.That was the voice used
for Mr.Magoo's teen nephew Waldo (after Jerry Hausner left), and for
COUNTLESS Lantz,Ward,and Hanna-Barbera characters (in the altter
department, Huckleberry Hound's two-time sparring-costar Leroy the
Lion, in LION HEARTED HUCK and some other short...Butler did that
slurred giddy Frank Fontaine-esque laugh even BETTER than either
Frebrg or the REAL McCoy, no offense!! (EEEEEEEEE!!!!!) Loved Fontiane
himself as the durnk on jackie Gleason and earlie rin the 1940s on
raido and of course he did that in the sweepstake routine in his
nightclub act in those dyas too.(Too many others to count did that
voice).
Steve Carras
2004-04-14 21:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Evanier
Post by Howard Fein
One misconception that keeps cropping up goes along the lines of "Daws
Butler worked ONLY for Hanna-Barbera." After many years in radio,
Butler started voicing for cartoons as far back as 1950 (MGM's
Avery-directed PEACHY COBBLER is reportedly is his first such role,
and his voicing of the deliberately maudlin narrator and elderly
Teutonic shoemaker show that he already knew his onions.)
Daws may have been playing that cobbler a la character actor Charles
Ruggles (1886-1970), both of whom appeared on the BULLWINKLE SHOW
(whose predecessors, ROCKY AND FRIENDS had Daws from that start,though
only credited once-see elsewhere in thsi thread*).That's the same
voice used as the similiar shoemaketr in Freleng's 1956 YANKEE DOOD
IT, and similiar to the impersonaiton of character actor Charles
Butterworth, the inspriation for the voice of Captain Crunch. (BTW,
Mark, you comment in 1998 that NO oine old enough to recall Daws's
ads would buy Cap'n crunch, except as you hinted for their kids.."you
know what I mean.."..well, I've enjoyed it as an adult, as some ads
have stated..Kellogg's has done the same "grown up boomer promotion"
with Tony the Tiger that Tony the Tiger did.
*As Mark, ArtyMcToon, myself and other know, Daws declined crdit due
to being associated with the above mentioned cereal giants, and
because of the multi-toon studio associaiton as well. Daws Butler's
name was, as Mr.Evanier pointed out some years back, mispelt Dawse on
his only Ward credit, the 1959 original ROCKY and on the 1970 CAT IN
THE HAT by DFE/Dr.Seuss (Chuck Jones, who was doing his OWN Dr.Seuss
stuff, was cocredited on this one, but that's a topic for another
thread).
Post by Mark Evanier
ME: Daws identified LITTLE RURAL RIDING HOOD (1949) as the first
cartoon he recorded. He played the City Wolf.
And of course the other voices were-
Hick Wolf/PINTO COLVIG
Country Red/COLLEEN COLLINS
City Red/IMOGENE LYNN (or were those last two reversed?).

Daws Butler, in FUNNYWORLD, which i got second hand (1988, but
published in 1978, the JUNGLE BOOK COVER ISSUE, #18, and voice
article), recalled going as far bck as 12946 into Warner Bros., and
hearing someone, probaly Treg Brown since he recommened Mel Blanc that
Mel did everytrhing (whcih of course, to paraphrase from FRIENDS is so
not true, but back then that was of course the way that Mel Blanc was
promoted in lieu of a raise,since 1944).

Curiously, the first Blanc-creedit cartoon, on a tangent, was ALSO a
Red Riding hood one--the bobbysoxer-Riding hood LITTLE RED RIDING
RABBIT,1943.
Steve Carras
2004-04-15 02:59:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Howard Fein
One misconception that keeps cropping up goes along the lines of "Daws
Butler worked ONLY for Hanna-Barbera." After many years in radio,
Butler started voicing for cartoons as far back as 1950 (MGM's
Avery-directed PEACHY COBBLER is reportedly is his first such role,
and his voicing of the deliberately maudlin narrator and elderly
Teutonic shoemaker show that he already knew his onions.)
Daws may have been playing that cobbler a la character actor Charles
Ruggles (1886-1970), both of whom appeared on the BULLWINKLE SHOW
(whose predecessors, ROCKY AND FRIENDS had Daws from that start,though
only credited once-see elsewhere in thsi thread*).That's the same
voice used as the similiar shoemaketr in Freleng's 1956 YANKEE DOOD
IT, and similiar to the impersonaiton of character actor Charles
Butterworth, the inspriation for the voice of Captain Crunch. (BTW,
Mark, you comment in 1998 that NO oine old enough to recall Daws's
ads would buy Cap'n crunch, except as you hinted for their kids.."you
know what I mean.."..well, I've enjoyed it as an adult, as some ads
have stated..Kellogg's has done the same "grown up boomer promotion"
with Tony the Tiger that Tony the Tiger did
To use a Britneyism--WHOOPS I did it again-I MEANT to type Kellog's
has done the same grown up promotion as has QUAKER OATS with
CAPT.CRUNCH (I DO so need a proofreader..:()
.
Steve Carras
2004-04-15 03:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
Post by Howard Fein
One misconception that keeps cropping up goes along the lines of "Daws
Butler worked ONLY for Hanna-Barbera." After many years in radio,
Butler started voicing for cartoons as far back as 1950 (MGM's
Avery-directed PEACHY COBBLER is reportedly is his first such role,
and his voicing of the deliberately maudlin narrator and elderly
Teutonic shoemaker show that he already knew his onions.)
Daws may have been playing that cobbler a la character actor Charles
Ruggles (1886-1970), both of whom appeared on the BULLWINKLE SHOW
(whose predecessors, ROCKY AND FRIENDS had Daws from that start,though
only credited once-see elsewhere in thsi thread*).
AND JUST to make this an itty bitty bit more complete here, the
character for Ward whom Charles Ruggles, uncredited like Butler
himself (unbileld for reasons already dicussed) and Bill Scott (due to
his modesty about self-crediting him-he and Jay Ward call themsevles
PONSONBY BRITT - wonder where they dug THAT UP- for their "esecutive
Producer") was AESOP--in AESOP AND SON, which like DUdley Doright
originated in 1961 on the BULLWINKLE SHOW (the version most
oft-syndicated to thsi day)
Steve Carras
2004-04-14 03:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arty McToon
Of course, Warner Bros. Animation had shut down in the late 1960s
Post by Arty McToon
(their animation shorts in their last years of operation had a
Hanna-Barbera look to them) and wasn't resurrected until the late
1970s for tv specials. H-B was actually tops in the tv animation game
in the late 1960s and 70s (with Filmation close behind) after WB's
demise since many more people were watching television than going to
the movies at the time.
With the possible exception of what little product Disney was making
in the second half of the sixties, ALL American animation was by and
large 'cheap'. The theatrical cartoons released by WB, DFE and Lantz
were indistinguishable in budget and quality from TV animation
produced by Hanna-Barbera. (Notice I didn't bring up KFS, Ward or
Filmation, most of whose product made in the late sixties made H-B
look positively expensive.)
This isn't meant to be a slam on H-B, whose budget seemed to have
dramatically increased in 1968. The superadventure shows of the
previous two seasons actually differed little in appearance to the
'funny animal' shorts the studio had been making for eight years
before that. But WACKY RACES, GULLIVER, CATTANOOGA CATS, PENELOPE
PITSTOP, DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY, WHERE'S HUDDLES and HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS
had dynamic designs and very colorful, fine-lined backgrounds (in
fitting with the times) that almost had a 3-D look at times. The first
two seasons of SCOOBY-DOO had a very effective 'dark' look that
reflected the mileus required of story.
This, of course, did not mean the end of cutting corners or technical
blunders. You still saw Autocat driving past the same building and
park endless times in one shot. The same spectators were seen cheering
in the sideline in every HUDDLES and 'TROTTER episode. Daphne could
still speak in Velma's voice.
Subsequent H-B series made in the seventies reverted to a more
conventional low-budget look, noticeably in JOSIE, HAIR BEAR BUNCH,
SEALAB 2020 and others. The farming out of work overseas was very
evident in shows that looked and sounded strange (FUNKY PHANTOM) or
were yet more stilted (AMAZING CHAN CLAN).
AND, as you've spoken of before, odd use ofmusic and soudn FX (unusual
ones and out of place use of the normal SFX and underscore).
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
6.Janet Waldo, Alan Reed,ec.were just Saturday AM voice actors with no
radio expierece.Even Daws Butler and Don Messick (who DID work in
theatricals,just unbilled for the most part before the sixties, that's
all) get this.(In realtiy, though little if at all heard prioir to HB,
the above, and Penny "Blondie" (after all!) Singleton,etc. hd VAST
expierence on radio).
One misconception that keeps cropping up goes along the lines of "Daws
Butler worked ONLY for Hanna-Barbera." After many years in radio,
Butler started voicing for cartoons as far back as 1950 (MGM's
Avery-directed PEACHY COBBLER is reportedly is his first such role,
and his voicing of the deliberately maudlin narrator and elderly
Teutonic shoemaker show that he already knew his onions.) Long before
H-B opened in 1957, Butler was frequently heard in MGM, WB and Lantz
cartoons. Even after he made his name as Yogi Bear and Huck Hound,
Butler continued to toil for Lantz, Jay Ward and DFE well into the
seventies.
Daws didn't (and Joe Bevilacqua will tell you this as much as anyone
as a close friend of the late Daws B.) go and promote himself, even
asking his name be REMOVED from ROCKY AND BULLWINKLE.
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Steve Carras
8.There's no sex appeal,esp.in the 1970s ones (obviously either from
straight guys who NEVER saw BUTCH CASSIDY-not the 1969 classic 20th
Century-Fox flick with Paul Newman (before his, uh salad days) and
Robert Redford but the teen rock group 1973 one), JOSIE, or
SCOOBY--I'm a Velma guy myself).
Zandor and Tara on the "Herculoids" were the cool couple.
Aside from Daphne and Melody, who EVERY guy loved,
Yeah!!!
I was partial to
Post by Arty McToon
Jenny Trent (The AROUND THE WORLD IN 79 DAYS segments of CATTANOOGA
CATS), Jeannie, Debbie of SPEED BUGGY, Steffy of BUTCH CASSIDY and
Lori of INCH HIGH PRIVATE HIGH. Somehow, none of the Teen Angels
especially appealed to me.
I loved blondes...Merilee (BC), Lori (INCH), Melody (JOSIE), Groovia
(ROMAN HOLIDAYS) and April (THE FUNKY PHANTOM) to name just some H-B
examples...
Post by Arty McToon
Post by Arty McToon
In the 70s, most H-B shows featured teens solving mysteries and
singing groovy songs. "Archie" was the "bomb" back then.
There were
Arty McToon
2004-04-14 16:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
Daws didn't (and Joe Bevilacqua will tell you this as much as anyone
as a close friend of the late Daws B.) go and promote himself, even
asking his name be REMOVED from ROCKY AND BULLWINKLE.
I thought it was more a sponsor conflict in not having Daws Butler's
name credited in any Jay Ward series. Kelloggs cereal was the sponsor
of most Hanna-Barbera cartoons in the 1960s (Yogi Bear hawking
Kelloggs Corn Flakes on the box label) and General Mills sponsored Jay
Ward's programs (Bullwinkle getting go-go power from Cheerios). Since
Daws Butler's bulk of his work was for Hanna-Barbera and not wishing
to upset the sponsor for working for a rival company's series, his
name was not in the credits for Ward's shows.

Later, Post (General Foods) would make Pebbles cereals and Ward would
animated commercials for Quaker's products (Quisp and Quake cereal,
Aunt Jemima's frozen waffles). Contracts can only go so far. :-)
Arty McToon
2004-04-14 17:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Fein
This isn't meant to be a slam on H-B, whose budget seemed to have
dramatically increased in 1968. The superadventure shows of the
previous two seasons actually differed little in appearance to the
'funny animal' shorts the studio had been making for eight years
before that. But WACKY RACES, GULLIVER, CATTANOOGA CATS, PENELOPE
PITSTOP, DASTARDLY & MUTTLEY, WHERE'S HUDDLES and HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS
had dynamic designs and very colorful, fine-lined backgrounds (in
fitting with the times) that almost had a 3-D look at times. The first
two seasons of SCOOBY-DOO had a very effective 'dark' look that
reflected the mileus required of story.
Former Disney background artist Walt Peregoy (who worked on "101
Dalmations", "The Jungle Book" and "The Aristocats") was responsible
for the lush backgrounds for H-B's series in the late 1960s (Arabian
Knights, Three Musketeers, Penelope Pitstop, Harlem Globetrotters).
H-B series director Charles Nichols was a former Disney staffer as
well.
Post by Howard Fein
This, of course, did not mean the end of cutting corners or technical
blunders. You still saw Autocat driving past the same building and
park endless times in one shot. The same spectators were seen cheering
in the sideline in every HUDDLES and 'TROTTER episode. Daphne could
still speak in Velma's voice.
The kids watching in the audience probably didn't mind. Story,
characters, and dialogue probably count the most...animation technique
and recycled backgrounds are probably the last on the minds of the
target under-age 12 audience.
Lou
2005-04-01 16:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arty McToon
In the 70s, most H-B shows featured teens solving mysteries and
singing groovy songs. "Archie" was the "bomb" back then.
I thought Archie was Filmation, not HB.

Lou
dwacon
2005-04-02 07:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lou
Post by Arty McToon
In the 70s, most H-B shows featured teens solving mysteries and
singing groovy songs. "Archie" was the "bomb" back then.
I thought Archie was Filmation, not HB.
Archie was Filmation. But they started the singing trend and HB picked it
up and ran with it. Can you believe Pebbles (Sally Struthers) singing that
"Yabba Dabba Doozie" song? Your insulin will spike just listening to it.

The live shows like "Danger Island" and "Huck Finn" thankfully left out the
singing part...
--
I made magic once. Now the sofa is gone.
http://www.dwacon.com
Lupercali
2005-04-02 16:38:16 UTC
Permalink
The live shows like "Danger Island".... thankfully left out the
singing part...
Yes, but I'm not sure that the pie-fight part was that big an improvement.


--
fluke at southcom.com.au

http://www.keyframeonline.com/ - The Animation Resource

Homepage: http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/university/222/
2***@wongfaye.com
2005-04-02 23:20:44 UTC
Permalink
i liked the superfriends , the flinstones and jetsons were a phenom
and laffalympics was awesome and i was addicted to thundarr for a while

for a while i thought he-man was hb but i was corrected quickly

i got to say they had some really cheap looking shows looping
backgrounds and limited color(bit o dont want rainbow brite, care bears
c avity inducing eye candy)

but japan anime seems to have mastered the cheap animation using
thoughtful poses and lighting to avoid having to animate mouths or the
scene with the car going over a hill(every show has it) where it is
just the cell of a back or front of a car raised and lowered

HB is just the whipping boy it has to be somebody

and hanna barbera is just so easy with the puns

its hanna barbaric or watch out for the hanna barbarians
Jeff Fassett
2005-04-07 22:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of "Danger Island".... Who couldn't resist saying (as a kid) UH
OH!! CHONGO!!
dwacon
2005-04-10 16:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Fassett
Speaking of "Danger Island".... Who couldn't resist saying (as a kid) UH
OH!! CHONGO!!
BTW, who was that guy who played Chongo? What else has he done?
--
Pater Familias
http://www.dwacon.com/publications/pater_familias.asp
Devomidi.com
2005-04-11 20:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by dwacon
Post by Jeff Fassett
Speaking of "Danger Island".... Who couldn't resist saying (as a kid) UH
OH!! CHONGO!!
BTW, who was that guy who played Chongo? What else has he done?
--
Pater Familias
http://www.dwacon.com/publications/pater_familias.asp
Chongo was played by a guy simple known as Kahana. He was last known doing
Stunt work in Hollywood.
Check out Danger Island at http://www.wingnuttoons.com/DangerIsland.html
Chris Sobieniak
2005-04-03 09:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lou
I thought Archie was Filmation, not HB.
Archie was Filmation. But they started the singing
trend and HB picked it up and ran with it. Can you
believe Pebbles (Sally Struthers) singing that
"Yabba Dabba Doozie" song? Your insulin will
spike just listening to it.
Don't worry, I've felt that already nearly 20 years ago when that show
was on USA Network (though I'm not diabetic yet).
The live shows like "Danger Island" and "Huck
Finn" thankfully left out the singing part...
HB and Filmation did dabble in live-action a lot in the '70s.

From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak @ Studio Toledo
The Wanderer
2004-04-13 01:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Everyone in thread plonked for crossposting.
--
Buddy
from Brooklyn

http://geocities.com/thewanderer315/
http://the70s.cje.net
http://www.johnlennon.it/galleria_fotografica.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/ny514/

"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Paine

"No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason
for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort
to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson

"First make sure you're right, then go ahead."
Davy Crockett

" There are certain sections in New York I wouldn't advise you to try to
invade."
Humphrey Bogart's line -as Rick- to Nazi officer in "Casablanca"

"The making of an American begins at the point where he himself rejects all
other ties, any other history, and himself adopts the vesture of his adopted
land."
James Baldwin
Post by Steve Carras
1.That the studio wasn't just FRUGALLY minded--it was downright
cheapie cheapie,esp.working with Screen Gems (given, the budgets for
Columbia Pictures,esp.in the Harry Cohen era WERE, but the films were
very well done within the budgets)
2.No HB before CARTOON CARTOONS exist.
3.Mo HB before the 1990s exist.
4.SMURFS are the only HB shw done, and therefore there's cause du jour
to detest the studio.In reaity the studio went back to the
fifties..and in the sixties created MEMROABLKE stuff like MAGILLA,
JOSIE, FLINTSTONES,JETSONS,YOGI,RUFF AND REDDY,SINBAD JR.,etc.,etc.
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.
6.Janet Waldo, Alan Reed,ec.were just Saturday AM voice actors with no
radio expierece.Even Daws Butler and Don Messick (who DID work in
theatricals,just unbilled for the most part before the sixties, that's
all) get this.(In realtiy, though little if at all heard prioir to HB,
the above, and Penny "Blondie" (after all!) Singleton,etc. hd VAST
expierence on radio).
7.ALL HB cartoons are made for the Peggy Charens (The
SMURFS,etc.).AAnyone WATCHING the 1958-1961 YOGIs, or TOP CAT with his
bon vivant savior faire and big city "Bilko"/Phil Silvers cunning
would know OTHERWISE.Judy Jetson MUST have caught on with ABC in 1962,
because A DATE WITH JET SCREAMER< portraying the Jude-stress as a
rebellious teen, was the first broadcast JETSONS (either the ROSIE one
had been made first as someitmes mentioned or the gang cfredit-ending
created for the original was done after the ROSIE debut was finished).
ANd of course we all know what swaggering Neantherthals, if you'll
pardon a pun, our dear friend Mr.Flintstone was, and how cunning WIlma
was, a la the HONEYMOONERS.(QUICK DRAW's another that was MUCH smarter
than mentioned and of course the Jay Ward infleunce all 'round on the
studio's 1957 TV debut, RUFF AND REDDY)
8.There's no sex appeal,esp.in the 1970s ones (obviously either from
straight guys who NEVER saw BUTCH CASSIDY-not the 1969 classic 20th
Century-Fox flick with Paul Newman (before his, uh salad days) and
Robert Redford but the teen rock group 1973 one), JOSIE, or
SCOOBY--I'm a Velma guy myself).
9.ALL HB shows "preach morality" and sell toys (pre-Powerpuff and
CN,anyhow).
10.Kinda related to #1, but just remembred..the Captiol/John Seely
(and also Associated Produvctioon and KPM music) in the cartoons, and
later Hoyt Curtin and Ted Nicholas's cues, are the ULTIMATE in
cheapness (as opposed to the ORIGINAL Looney Tunes scores for
Warnrs,or what Chuck Jones and the like did).Never mind of course the
TELEVSION series schedule..also of course poeple forget WHY TV at
all--book blocking in theatres had collapsed, cinemas werre less and
less showing toons...
Roj
2004-04-15 17:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Carras
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.
This is not a misconception. I was there. I remember. The
Hanna-Barbera cartoons were just not funny. The Warner Brothers work
was definitely superior.
Chika
2004-04-15 19:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roj
Post by Steve Carras
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.
This is not a misconception. I was there. I remember. The
Hanna-Barbera cartoons were just not funny. The Warner Brothers work
was definitely superior.
Doesn't that depend heavily on how late on into the sixties you go? Some
of the crud that came out of WB/Seven Arts towards the end of the sixties
was pretty dire, especially as the talent that made them big started to
drift off. HB might have been low grade, but they were consistant!
--
//\ // Chika <***@penfuarg.bet.hx. - ROT13>
// \// The second ZFC coming <crashnet.org.uk/zedeffcee>

... Quick! Close your mind!! Something might get in.
Derek Janssen
2004-04-15 23:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chika
Post by Roj
Post by Steve Carras
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners
This is not a misconception. I was there. I remember. The
Hanna-Barbera cartoons were just not funny. The Warner Brothers work
was definitely superior.
Depends WHICH H-B cartoons you watched (as detailed below)
Considering the same writers worked for both early H-B shorts *and* the
Looneys, they were just two different schools--
The H-B's had more sarcasm and free-form "just threw that in" silliness,
where the Looneys were more closely built to character and story.
Post by Chika
Doesn't that depend heavily on how late on into the sixties you go? Some
of the crud that came out of WB/Seven Arts towards the end of the sixties
was pretty dire, especially as the talent that made them big started to
drift off. HB might have been low grade, but they were consistant!
Not really:
You see the dropoff right at a dividing line around 1963 (for reference,
most place that right after Pebbles was born in "Flintstones")--
Up to that point, most of the shorts and Jet/Flints were for prime-time
and had to have the same cross-adult appeal as the theatrical Looneys;
afterwards, most of the shows were for kids syndie and emerging
Sat.-morning, and just coasted on formula.

While Yogi, Huck and Fred straddled both eras, it's pretty easy to tell
the difference between a wiseass/surreal "Before" Quick Draw McGraw, and
a flat, formula'ed "After" Peter Potamus.
(Although to his credit, Snagglepuss is considered the last of the great
"old-schoolers" of the After shorts...)

Derek Janssen
***@rcn.com
Chris Sobieniak
2004-04-15 22:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chika
Doesn't that depend heavily on how late on into
the sixties you go? Some of the crud that came out
of WB/Seven Arts towards the end of the sixties
was pretty dire, especially as the talent that made
them big started to drift off. HB might have been
low grade, but they were consistant!
Typically between 1967-69, WB had re-opened their animation studio
(after there 2-year fling with DePathe-Freleng and Format Films) and had
to hire a new batch of people to work there. Bill Hendricks (producer
of "The Commies are Coming! The Commies are Coming!") was the producer
of this period and the cartoons were supervised under the arm of Alex
Lovy, who had left Hanna-Barbera at this point (he also worked at Walter
Lantz previously), as well as Bob McKimson for the remainder of the '69
crop. The toons where a mixture of the same Speedy/Daffy parings of the
DePathe-Freleng era, cobbled with some new starts on the rouster,
including Cool Cat, Merlin the Magic Mouse, Bunny & Claude and others.

Apart from these offerings, the one that always impressed me a little
was the "Cartoon Special", "Norman Normal" a kind of look into the life
of an individual and the hard-knock that existed in the late '60s where
everyone wanted him to be what he wasn't. The toon also used the song
by the same name performed by "Peter, Paul & Mary" (Paul was one of the
writers/voice actors on this), which kinda harkens back to the early
days of the WB cartoons where the Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies used
to be song-laden with the title of the cartoon being that particular
song. My only complaint about this cartoon was in how it didn't have
much of a decent ending, obvious of the usual time limit that existed in
the WB cartoons, it just felt there needed to be a few more minutes to
see where they could've developed this character and his problems
further in the film, perhaps find a way for him to resolve his
differences, or perhaps to finally go berserk and become "abnormal" to
see where it would take him. Too bad it was pretty hard for them to get
it all in at only 6 minutes to burn.

Other than that, there was also "The Door" which was an independent
project that was produced from a company formed by Bill Cosby and a few
others. The group would also own a record label called Tetragrammaton
Records (the Mark I Deep Purple band had their early three albums
released through this label). That film was also supposibly a lot
different from what would be the norm for audiences to expect to see
when seeing a movie.

From the Master of Car-too-nal Knowledge...
Christopher M. Sobieniak

--"Fightin' the Frizzies since 1978"--
Ugly
2004-04-17 16:21:42 UTC
Permalink
On 15 Apr 2004 10:07:56 -0700, Roj babbled on about Re: Top Ten Hanna-Barbera TV
Post by Roj
Post by Steve Carras
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.
This is not a misconception. I was there. I remember. The
Hanna-Barbera cartoons were just not funny. The Warner Brothers work
was definitely superior.
It was like an article in Mad Magazine on The Simpsons: "Thanks to The Simpsons,
Hanna-Barbera is no longer the worst animation on television." <g>
Van Bagnol
2004-04-18 11:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roj
Post by Steve Carras
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.
This is not a misconception. I was there. I remember. The
Hanna-Barbera cartoons were just not funny. The Warner Brothers work
was definitely superior.
And Jay Ward's dialogue was much more sophisticated.

Van
--
Van Bagnol / v b a g n o l at earthlink dot net / c r l at bagnol dot com
...enjoys - Theatre / Windsurfing / Skydiving / Mountain Biking
...feels - "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng paniginip"
...thinks - "An Error is Not a Mistake ... Unless You Refuse to Correct It"
Steve Carras
2004-04-22 03:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roj
Post by Steve Carras
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.
This is not a
misconception. I was there. I
remember. The
So was I. And maybe it is that i come froma
mor emiddle class environment but I iden tify
with the the HB cartoons.

And one cannot call "Sophisticatred"
the minldess Bugs or Speedy Gonzalez vs
Daffy shorts,nad some of those were racist.

HB cartoons wee hilarious, and given the tight budgets,includeing
anned music, they worked out pretty wlel.Jay Wards were no different.
Steve Carras
2004-04-25 19:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roj
Post by Roj
Post by Steve Carras
5.Hanna-Barbera toons from the baby boomer era are inferioir to
Warners (a likewise done argument against Disney, which is REAL
insulting givne the studio's large budget,use of scored (as opposed to
library) musical soundtracks even in the vintage era of Walt and Roy
Sr.,befvore Eisnetr, and the innovaitosn Walt made.
This is not a
misconception. I was there. I
remember. The
So was I. And maybe it is that i come froma
mor emiddle class environment but I iden tify
with the the HB cartoons.
And one cannot call "Sophisticatred"
the minldess Bugs or Speedy Gonzalez vs
And Bullwinkle telling kids (a la Soupy Sales with money a bit later)
to remove their parents boob toob set knobs was NOT anything short of
STUPID and IRRESPONIBLE.
Post by Roj
Daffy shorts,nad some of those were racist.
HB cartoons wee hilarious, and given the tight budgets,includeing
anned music, they worked out pretty wlel.Jay Wards were no different.
Howard Fein
2004-04-15 18:25:25 UTC
Permalink
They may not qualify for the Top Ten, but there are other widespread
H-B misconceptions as listed in reference books and websites:

"Every DC Comic hero- Batman, Superman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman etc.-
were animated ONLY by H-B and beginning in the sixties."

Filmation presented the first DC Comics adaptation in 1966. The style,
other than being extremely low budget, little resembled the way we
expect Filmation cartoons to be: dead serious approach and music
score, no cute comic relief characters, no H-B SFX. Casey Kasem, who
would voice Robin for years in the later H-B adaptations, made his
animation debut and only Filmation appearance in this series. (I can't
help but think how great he'd be as Jughead!)

H-B didn't enter the DC foray until 1973 with the first of many, many
SUPERFRIENDS variations. It's said that the series improved and became
progressively more faithful to the characters each season after 1979.
Phasing out the Wonder Twins (who've become the butt of many jokes on
numerous CN bumpers) no doubt had a lot to do with that.

Filmation produced another, much lighter version of Batman as a
1976-77 mid-season replacement on CBS. The 'prestige' of having West
and Ward reprising their roles was completely blunted by the
introduction of Batmite, who ranks only behind Scrappy-Doo in
annoyance and lack of necessity.

"In 1979, thirteen old FLINTSTONE episodes were rerun on NBC's
Saturday AM schedule with Henry Corden and Gay Auttisen (sp?) dubbing
over the dialogue originally recorded by, respecitvely, the deceased
Alan Reed and Bea Benadaret."

In a rare Saturday AM instance of a new show debuting as a mid-season
replacement, a series titled THE NEW FRED AND BARNEY SHOW bowed on
NBC. These were seventeen entirely NEW episodes done in the same time
frame as the original series- i.e. Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm as babies
rather than teenagers. Other than Dino and that wrackin'-frackin'
Slate, no other supporting characters appeared, so we were spared the
rampant cameo-itis that prevails in today's Post Cereal commercials.
(One would guess the change in title so people wouldn't think they
were reruns of the original FLINTSTONES- understandable, since NBC at
the time routinely picked up reruns of ancient cartoons such as THE
JETSONS and JONNY QUEST to replace various failed series.)

Obviously, the new episodes were successful enough to merit the
production of an entirely first-run Flintstone anthology in fall 1980
featuring six different series of seven-minute shorts.

"After the success of THE BANANA SPLITS on NBC, the next season saw
THE CATTANOOGA CATS, another live-action/animation blend on ABC. The
Cats were costumed actors a la the Splits."

While elements of the CATS may have been inspired by the SPLITS (a
faux rock group singing light rock numbers under psychedelic
backgrounds; several unrelated supporting series; quick joke and
blackout bumpers between shorts), the ENTIRE SHOW WAS ANIMATED! In
truth, it was more a revival of H-B's early syndicated
'three-funny-animals-each-with-their-own segment' packages. At least
for the Cats', Autocat & Motormouse and It's The Wolf! segments. The
fourth segment, 'Around the World in 79 Days' was more of a
comedy/adventure hybrid, the likes of which would segue into the
durable Meddling Kids format.

Flash forward to 1977, when SKATEBIRDS did replicate the 'group of
whimsical talking animals as costumed actors' format. But without the
hook of rock music, the Birds disappeared by midseason, though one of
its segments, the Three Robonic Stooges got its own half-hour CBS
slot- reruns only, of course.

"The title character of INCH HIGH PRIVATE EYE was an otherwise
normal-sized man who attained his diminutive stature by taking a
potion. The potion would wear off at the wrong times, causing comic
calamities."

The above may be paraphrased badly, but I've seen it in at least two
places. It's WROOOONG!! Uncle Inch was PERMANENTLY the height he was.
That's what made him great- he didn't let it stop him. Kind of like
PBS' GEORGE SHRINKS.

"John Stephenson was the permanent villian in every SCOOBY-DOO
episode."

That seems to have been the case in the very gritty, heavy-handed
1976-78 episodes. But Stephenson appeared in only about half of the
original 25 WHERE ARE YOU? episodes. The villian could just as easily
be expert good-guy portrayer Don Messick, or veteran character actor
Vic Perrin- who was also a very convincing villian on JONNY QUEST.

Alan Oppenheimer and Frank Welker also seemed to have frequently
voiced villians during the ABC DOO era.

It's a testament to Stephenson's ability to portray sarcastic,
fastidious villians (as well as sarcastic, fastidious bosses, cops and
soldiers) that had him pigeonholed as the ONLY Scooby villian.

"Every comedic H-B show made during the seventies had that annoying
laugh track."

Close, but the producers had the wisdom NOT to include it in FUNKY
PHANTOM, WHEELIE & THE CHOPPER BUNCH, the TOM & JERRY/GRAPE APE/MUMBLY
melange, the first season of LAFF-A-LYMPICS (why one was used for the
second half-season of originals baffles me), all C.B. BEARS,
SKATEBIRDS and YOGI'S SPACE RACE segments and POPEYE. Needless to say,
canned laughter would've been extremely out of place in any of these,
especially Popeye.

But that didn't stop either H-B or the network in question from
putting a laugh track on YOGI'S GANG (perhaps to impart the idea that
this show had any humor in it, something not readily apparent to
anyone watching it) or any show with talking animals, vehicles or
apparitions: HAIR BEAR BUNCH, SPEED BUGGY, HONG KONG PHOOEY,
JABBERJAW, CASPER & THE ANGELS(!). A laugh track MIGHT'VE been a
slightly better fit on those cartoons that had sitcom elements, such
as HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS, JOSIE, AMAZING CHAN CLAN, ROMAN HOLIDAYS,
ADDAMS FAMILY, INCH HIGH PRIVATE EYE, JEANNIE or PARTRIDGES 2200 A.D.

The rationale behind inserting a laugh track could've been because one
was used for the original SCOOBY-DOO. This was ostensibly the idea of
CBS prez Fred Silverman who wanted to convey the comedic elements of
the show to young viewers who might've otherwise found it too scary.
And then when Scooby's show became such a big hit, the network suits
may have said "Wait a minute- that show's a big hit and it's got a
laugh track! PUT LAUGH TRACKS ON ALL FUNNY CARTOONS, AND THAT'S AN
ORDER!" Similarly, most comedic shows made in the seventies by
Filmation, DFE and Rankin-Bass had laugh tracks as well.

It's interesting to note that many cartoons originally aired on
Saturday AM network line-ups with laugh tracks were repeated in
syndication or on basic cable shorn of their laugh tracks. CN removed
them from most seventies' shows, and initially from THE FLINTSTONES,
JETSONS and TOP CAT as well. In my opinion, HAIR BEAR BUNCH and HONG
KONG PHOOEY play much better without laugh tracks. Conversely, the
three older shows cited in the previous sentence play much better
WITH. After all, they were basically animated sitcoms with as much
emphasis on dialogue and characterization as cartoon mayhem. It's easy
to forget T.C. and his gang are actually humanized animals.

"Every Meddling Kid comedy/mystery show had an obligatory light rock
'chase song'- dialogueless slapstick humor resulting in the heroes
catching the villians by a combination of absurb costume changes, dumb
luck and elaborate gadgetry- at the climax of every episode."

The roots of this can really be traced to 1965-67's BEATLES cartoon,
and the prime-time MONKEES sitcom, which closely resembled a cartoon
at times. JOSIE and HARLEM GLOBETROTTERS, which premiered the same day
in 1970, were the first H-B cartoons to adhere to this practice- NOT
SCOOBY-DOO as has often been reported. The first 17-episode season of
DOO aired the season before JOSIE, the latter of which is widely
considered a rip-off of the former. Eight new episodes of DOO were
commissioned by CBS for the fall 1970 season, and all but one had a
chase song.

One could justify the JOSIE chase songs as a method of promoting the
manufactured group's 'songs. But there seemed to be no reason for them
in either DOO or GLOBETROTTERS (even though I personally LOVE the five
songs used in the latter series!).

Two seasons later, THE AMAZING CHAN CLAN had the ten kids in a rock
band of their own. But with the exception of one early episode, there
were no chase songs- just scattered footage of them playing while not
solving mysteries. Next season's BUTCH CASSIDY was a somewhat more
serious show- despite the presence of that laughtrack again! So while
a rock band, the Sundance Kids (how'd H-B get permission from Fox to
use the name?!), were the show's framing device, their music was only
heard 'straight' in performance or rehearsal. JABBERJAW, also
centering around a rock band, revived the chase song format in 1976-
though the songs were much shorter than those in the 1970 shows.

The chase song became associated most closely- and inaccurately with
SCOOBY-DOO to the point that many other shows' parodies of the show
(MIGHTY MOUSE: THE NEW ADVENTURES, JOHNNY BRAVO, and the franchise's
own prequel, a PUP NAMED SCOOBY-DOO) made sure to include one. The
absurdity of the convention is trumpeted by such proclamations as
"It's time for the chase- start the music" followed by a character
pulling a giant jukebox out of nowhere.
Ugly
2004-04-17 16:13:30 UTC
Permalink
On 11 Apr 2004 21:02:42 -0700, Steve Carras babbled on about Top Ten Hanna-Barbera TV
Post by Steve Carras
8.There's no sex appeal,esp.in the 1970s ones (obviously either from
straight guys who NEVER saw BUTCH CASSIDY-not the 1969 classic 20th
Century-Fox flick with Paul Newman (before his, uh salad days) and
Robert Redford but the teen rock group 1973 one), JOSIE, or
SCOOBY--I'm a Velma guy myself).
This is where it blurs for me.... the Archie series. Yes I was under the impression that
Josie was HB, but if I'm not mistaken, I thought Sabrina was Filmation. Or am I mistaken?
Because two of my biggest turn-ons were Josie and Sabrina. And as for Velma Dinkley...
only for the mini-skirt. The turtleneck could have been optional. Oh.... and Jane Jetson.
I've never seen a real-life female in a triangular dress like that but it would drive me
wild.
Derek Janssen
2004-04-17 20:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ugly
This is where it blurs for me.... the Archie series. Yes I was under the impression that
Josie was HB, but if I'm not mistaken, I thought Sabrina was Filmation. Or am I mistaken?
Common misconception--
HB's Josie was the only non-Filmation Archies.

(In terms of trying to remember Whose Was Whose, think of it as "Teen
mystery-group trumps Archie-connection".)

Derek Janssen
***@rcn.com
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